Transcript
Act Two. A Dave in Court.
Ira Glass
We have arrived at Act Two of our program. Act Two, A Dave in Court.
A little while ago, one of our producers, David Kestenbaum, broke one of the rules that we in our country have decided all to abide by. He made a left-hand turn by a sign that says no left-hand turns. As a result, he ended up spending the day in the courtroom of this one judge. This judge who applied the rules with a fastidious consistency that's sometimes lacking on privately-owned Hawaiian islands. We thought it might be nice to end our show today by seeing what that's like exactly. Here's David.
David Kestenbaum
If the Supreme Court is the highest court in the land, this is basically the lowest. It's a municipal court. This one is for two towns in New Jersey. Still, the courtroom is an intimidating place. Wood paneling, wood seats, a giant official seal on the wall. In front of that, the judge's bench, which is raised like this physical reminder of who is in charge. There are a couple dozen of us here to have our cases heard.
Bailiff
All rise for the honorable Clarence Barry-Austin.
David Kestenbaum
Judge Clarence Barry-Austin walks in, black robe. And if you're hoping to be home in an hour, it's not going to happen. Here's how he starts.
Clarence Barry-austin
Now, the information I'm about to communicate to you will take a few minutes to do so, perhaps more than a few minutes.
David Kestenbaum
I know the word few can mean more than three. In this case, it means 22-- which is longer, by the way, than this entire story will be. He gives this long list of rules and information and more rules.
Clarence Barry-austin
I have to accept your guilty plea. I have to evaluate that plea to determine that it is an acceptable plea of court--
David Kestenbaum
The judge wants people to know all this stuff for their own protection, but he has another reason, as well. There is this much grander mission that he's on, though it doesn't come up until minute 20. And it's easy to miss.
Clarence Barry-austin
It is important to the court that you leave here fully understanding our procedures, our protocols, and the circumstances surrounding your particular case. Whether you are happy with the result is less important to you. Really, frankly, it's less important to me--
David Kestenbaum
He wants people to leave the court understanding how our legal system works I talked to Barry-Austin about this. Months later, we sat down to do an interview. He says it's part of their training for municipal courts because, for some people coming in, their little traffic case could be their only contact with the legal system ever-- the only time they're in an actual court having their case heard, with all that wood paneling around them.
Clarence Barry-austin
That's one of the things that we talk about, the fact that it's important that they have a good experience, and a fair and an impartial experience here because this is where people will determine what they think of the judiciary as a whole.
David Kestenbaum
Everything. Like up to the Supreme Court, like all the cases they read about in the newspaper.
Clarence Barry-austin
Absolutely. They get a sense that judiciary functions in a fair and impartial way-- and a compassionate way.
David Kestenbaum
What makes this mission hard is that I and all the people around me here are on a mission of our own, and it is not the same mission. From what I can tell from our chitchat on the way in, a bunch of us are here because we are sure we should not have gotten the ticket. I fell into this category. We want the judge to waive the ticket, or at least reduce the fine, or something.
Clarence Barry-austin
Put your left hand on the Bible. Right hand raised.
David Kestenbaum
Case in point-- and by that I mean case in point. This is a guy who we'll call Jeff. Jeff is upset about his ticket. He parked his car on the street overnight, which is not allowed. There are signs for it all over town. But he is pleading not guilty. So they have this little mini trial. He doesn't have a lawyer or anything. It's just him.
Clarence Barry-austin
This procedure's a little different than you may be accustomed to.
Jeff
I know, Your Honor. I've been coming here for about 14 years now.
Clarence Barry-austin
You've been coming here for about 14 years?
Jeff
Grew up in this town.
Clarence Barry-austin
OK. You've been coming to court for 14 years?
Jeff
Well, you know, with school. I went to school at Seton Hall.
Clarence Barry-austin
All right. Well, I just wanted to--
David Kestenbaum
I think Jeff is just trying to establish that he's a local. The kind of person who deserves a break. He launches into his defense, which is that he lives basically right on the border between two towns. In one town, it's illegal to park on the street overnight. But in the other town, it's legal. He says there are no signs showing where the border is. Though when he lays all this out, the whole thing gets a little garbled because-- I saw this a few times when people go to court-- they sometimes try to use legal terms like they've seen on Law and Order or something.
Jeff
--this one, and that's why I came here, Your Honor. To actually show evidence that there's no actual proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, for an individual that goes in there, like myself-- I've been living there-- to know that that particular side of the street where the border is between two towns, to know exactly if he was parking in South Orange or in North.
Clarence Barry-austin
As I indicated in my opening statement, parking tickets are a little different.
David Kestenbaum
Judge Barry-Austin often is very patient with him. He told me people often come in just wanting to be heard, so he listens. But also-- this is the mission, remember-- he wants the guy to know how our system works, how the law works.
Clarence Barry-austin
Let me just inform you that motor vehicle rules of the road don't require intent. Criminal laws require you to intent to violate the law. Motor vehicle laws don't require intent. So if you parked illegally-- even if you don't intend to park illegally, if you are, in fact, parked illegally, that's a violation.
David Kestenbaum
Jeff plows ahead anyway. He enters 11 photos into evidence. He runs through them one by one. Photos of the street signs, and the lack of street signs. Close-ups of street signs. A photo of a fire hydrant, for some reason. Of a car parked in the same spot he was parked in on a different night. That car didn't get a ticket. The whole thing takes about 15 minutes. And then the judge issues his ruling.
Clarence Barry-austin
Your defense really is not an approved defense. I'm satisfied that all the necessary proofs are in place for me and supports a finding of guilty of this particular offense. The fine for the offense, sir, is $60.
David Kestenbaum
Jeff went off to pay his fine, pretty clearly feeling like justice had not been done here.
David Kestenbaum
How do you think he felt at the end of that?
Clarence Barry-austin
I'm sure he felt frustrated.
David Kestenbaum
Didn't you have some discretion? I mean, this guy, he's walking in there super frustrated. He's lived here his whole life. There are no signs there. Could you have given him a break?
Clarence Barry-austin
I could have suspended his fine, yes.
David Kestenbaum
Oh, you could have?
Clarence Barry-austin
I could've.
David Kestenbaum
Why didn't you?
Clarence Barry-austin
Because he violated the law. People go through stop signs and say, I didn't see the stop sign. What would make his situation different from anybody else who said, Judge, I didn't know?
David Kestenbaum
Barry-Austin was born in Guyana. Neither of his parents went to college, but he told me he wanted to work with the law as long as he can remember. He liked arguing things, sorting through the logic of things. He has faith in the idea of laws, that rules, words on a page, can be clearly applied to the real world. And yet, even here, with these little cases, you see how hard that can be-- like with this one man.
He'd gotten a ticket, I think, for being too far into the intersection when he stopped for a red light. His English isn't so good.
Man
Yes, something I understand.
Clarence Barry-austin
Now, is it a hearing problem or is it a language problem? Do you understand English?
Man
No, no, no. No problem with hearing, no. It's OK.
Clarence Barry-austin
You can hear OK? You hear everything I'm saying?
Man
Yes, OK.
Clarence Barry-austin
Do you understand everything I'm saying?
Man
Yes. Understand something.
Clarence Barry-austin
What language do you speak, sir?
Man
Ukrainian, Russian, Polish.
David Kestenbaum
The guy just wants to plead guilty. But the judge, admirably, wants to make sure the man clearly understands what's happening. So he tries to get an interpreter. The courts are set up to do this, though the mechanism seems a little low-tech.
[PHONE DIALING]
The judge calls up an interpreter service, basically on a speakerphone in the court.
Machine
Welcome to LanguageLine Solutions. For Spanish, press 1. For other, press 2.
[BEEP]
[HOLD MUSIC PLAYING]
David Kestenbaum
The judge tells them he needs a Polish interpreter. And after a bit, a woman comes on who speaks Polish. The judge has to swear her in.
Clarence Barry-austin
Do you solemnly swear--
David Kestenbaum
This all takes time. Everyone in court just has to wait. Then the judge starts over with the man. The woman on the phone translates for the judge.
Interpreter
[SPEAKING POLISH]
Man
It's not Polish language.
Clarence Barry-austin
Didn't you say that you would prefer to speak in Polish?
Man
Ukrainian. Ukrainian, Russian, no problem.
Clarence Barry-austin
I thought you said Polish, no problem. Didn't you say that?
David Kestenbaum
The judge has to do the whole thing again. Find a Ukrainian interpreter.
Interpreter
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
David Kestenbaum
This went on for over a half an hour. Even with the interpreter, the judge isn't convinced the man totally understands, so he schedules the trial for another day. All this to try to resolve a minor traffic violation. I found it grueling, and also impressive.
Most of the cases didn't take that long. The judge cranked through 27 different defendants in a little over five hours. There was a guy who'd been caught with a small amount of marijuana. And weirdly, a case against the CEO of JP Morgan Chase, the largest bank in America. I thought maybe he'd blown a stop sign or something, but it was about a property that hadn't been kept up. And it turned out neither he nor the bank had any connection to the building, so it got dismissed. And then there was one woman who'd been in a minor accident. She testified that the other car had quote, "appeared out of nowhere," which I'm pretty sure violates the law-- of physics.
Some people did seem OK with how things went. One man, when his case was over, told the judge to have a blessed day. Another man who had pulled into a handicapped spot apologized. The most fascinating case of the day, though, the one where you saw just how hard it could sometimes be to apply the law, was this one.
Clarence Barry-austin
Just speak up. Say who you are, name and address.
David Kestenbaum
The guy says his name. Then, for address--
Homeless Man
I don't have an address.
Clarence Barry-austin
By that, are you asserting that you're homeless?
Homeless Man
Yes, sir.
David Kestenbaum
The man's wearing a long-sleeved button-up shirt that is too big and untucked. He's standing with his legs really far apart, as if maybe he'd worked out that that was the most stable way to stand to keep from falling over.
Judge Barry-Austin goes through the papers. He sees that the man is in for basically drinking in public. It's an open container violation. The ticket was issued years ago and never paid.
Clarence Barry-austin
Which has gone back to 2013.
Homeless Man
Yes. It took me a little while to get here. Sorry.
Clarence Barry-austin
I don't know how to take that, but I hope you don't mean that to be funny.
David Kestenbaum
The prosecutor has recommended that the whole thing be dismissed. But Barry-Austin is not on board. He looks down at the ticket. The court had tried to get the man to appear many times.
Clarence Barry-austin
I mean, there are multiple times. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 that I can quickly count. The court has expended an enormous amount of time, effort, and expense in just trying to get him into court.
David Kestenbaum
I'm willing to dismiss the original ticket, he says, but shouldn't there be some penalty for failing to appear in court so many times? At this point, the homeless man, unwisely, speaks up.
Homeless Man
I've been homeless for approximately eight years, sir.
Clarence Barry-austin
OK. But at the same time, you did get the ticket, did you not?
Homeless Man
I got the ticket and I lost it or threw it away. I don't know what I did with it.
Clarence Barry-austin
[SCOFFS]
You see what I'm-- you lost it or you threw it away? You know, it's just a total disregard for the process. That's what's bothering me, OK? I mean, being homeless doesn't prevent you from at least abiding by the process of the court.
David Kestenbaum
Of course, the judge is all about applying the process of the court. A woman steps up to testify on the homeless man's behalf. She says she knows him because he comes to her food pantry. He volunteers there, too. She says he comes in three days a week, four hours a day.
Woman
It's a lot of work, and he needs medical care. He has seizures. I've witnessed them. He's going to the hospital. I take him home from the hospital.
David Kestenbaum
She says she's been trying to help get him on Medicaid, but someone told her he can't be on Medicaid because of this outstanding ticket. I later learned that's probably not correct. But that's why she brought him in.
Woman
So we're trying to go through all the processes, and taking a long time.
Clarence Barry-austin
So if I'm understanding you correct, it wasn't even at his initiative that he's here today? It's at your initiative?
Woman
Because he forgot all about it. I'm sure he did. And he shouldn't have.
David Kestenbaum
This is where the mission gets tough. Judge Barry-Austin goes back and forth about what to do, just thinking aloud. I don't see how I can let this go, he says. He can't just not show up for court so many times and there not be any consequence. On the other hand, he recognizes the guy will have a hard time paying a penalty. There will probably be additional cost to the court to try to collect it. But in the end, he decides to issue a $50 fine for failing to appear. And then, almost as an afterthought, he asks this.
Clarence Barry-austin
Does he get paid at all for his work at the--
Woman
They're all volunteers. We'll pay court costs, whatever it is, sir.
Clarence Barry-austin
The program will take care of that for him?
Woman
We'll take care of it, absolutely, because he needs medical help.
Clarence Barry-austin
All right. OK.
David Kestenbaum
Barry-Austin was just trying to apply the law-- the law that he believes in. And yet, he was in a bind. He decided to issue this fine to punish a guy for not showing up in court, but now the guy wasn't even going to end up paying the fine because now it's going to come out of the budget of a food pantry. What to do?
When I interviewed Barry-Austin about this day in court, it was a couple months after the fact. He was curious how it came out, too.
Clarence Barry-austin
How did it turn out? Do you recall?
David Kestenbaum
What do you think you did?
Clarence Barry-austin
What would I have done? I don't want to venture a guess. Tell me how it worked out.
David Kestenbaum
Here, I'll play it for you.
Clarence Barry-austin
All right. You know what? Since I don't want to impose that cost upon the program. I don't want to impose it. I'm going to suspend it.
David Kestenbaum
He lets it go. No penalty. Barry-Austin told me this is one thing that thwarts him occasionally-- human kindness. The usual way it happens is that someone, an adult, will be assessed a fine, and then the person will look to the back of the courtroom and an older parent or grandparent will come forward to pay it.
Clarence Barry-austin
Why are you paying? It's his. I mean, he's not a child. He's a grown person. Why are you-- I can't tell you not to pay. And I won't tell you not to pay. But it just irritates me. I always tell my kids, I will never let you fall and crash and burn. I will always be that last resort that you have to. But you have to learn lessons from the things that you do. And the rules are the rules.
David Kestenbaum
The rules are the rules. I have just one more case for you.
Bailiff
State versus David Kestenbaum.
David Kestenbaum
That's me. Before I play you the tape-- which is excruciating for me to listen to now-- remember, I was one of the people who was convinced they had been wronged. I'd made the left turn, sure, into a parking space. But I had no idea it was illegal. There is a sign, but honestly, you can't see it until after you've already made the turn. And given that, the penalty just seemed unfair. $85 plus three points on your license. After it happened, I would pass by that spot every day on my way to work, and every day I would be filled with outrage that I'd gotten the ticket.
I'd been compulsively running through what I would say in court in my head for weeks. So that day, I dressed up. I wore a tie. I had my manila envelope with photos in it, and data. I'd measured the distance from where I'd made the turn to where the sign is. I was nervous to be there in court, but I also felt like, I'm a rule-follower. If there's a sign that says no left turns, I don't make a left turn. So I felt like, I'm not against these people, the judge and the prosecutor. There'd just been some sort of mistake. We were going to sort it out. I see now how stupid that was.
When I arrived in court, I'd waited in line to see the prosecutor, who'd looked at my driving record, which was clean, and he'd offered me a plea bargain. I'd plead guilty to a lesser charge-- obstructing the flow of traffic, which did not come with any points-- and he said I could explain to the judge about the signs. Maybe he would reduce the fine. That seemed great. It seemed like the way the system was supposed to work. I knew it. These were my people. We all want the same thing. Here's what happened when I got before Judge Barry-Austin.
Clarence Barry-austin
Good afternoon, sir. Your name, your address, please.
David Kestenbaum
David Kestenbaum.
It started according to plan.
Clarence Barry-austin
You also were charged with making a left turn into a parking space on Sloane Street?
David Kestenbaum
That's correct.
Clarence Barry-austin
Prosecutor's moving to amend that to a violation of Title 39:4-67. Again, obstruction of traffic. You understand the amendment that's being proposed?
David Kestenbaum
I do.
Clarence Barry-austin
And you're pleading guilty to obstructing traffic through the maneuver of making a left turn into the parking space?
David Kestenbaum
[INAUDIBLE]
If I had been paying more attention to Judge Barry-Austin's 22-minute introductory speech, I think I might have avoided what came next. Remember this?
Clarence Barry-austin
I have to accept your guilty plea. I have to evaluate that plea to determine that it is an acceptable plea according to the standards and the guidelines that I have to follow.
David Kestenbaum
I was not paying attention at all. When I stood in front of the judge, he told me he had to establish a factual basis for my plea. I was pleading guilty to obstructing the flow of traffic, so he asked, did I obstruct the flow of traffic by making that left-hand turn? If I had just answered yes, I would have been fine. But I didn't remember any cars. And I was still hoping that, when he understood my situation, he'd give me a break on the fine. So here's what I said when he asked, were you obstructing the flow of traffic?
David Kestenbaum
There were no other cars around, but I understand it would impede the flow. Yes.
Clarence Barry-austin
No. No, it doesn't work like that, sir.
David Kestenbaum
I'm sorry.
Clarence Barry-austin
It doesn't work like that. I need a factual basis. If there was no other vehicles then--
David Kestenbaum
There were other vehicles in the area.
Clarence Barry-austin
No, no, you-- you can't acknowledge to me on the record that there were no other vehicles and then say that you impeded traffic. I can't accept that.
David Kestenbaum
Can I give a fuller explanation?
Can I give a fuller explanation? God, who talks like that? Me, I guess. I'd started doing that thing I'd seen other people do. I tried to use legal language I had no business using.
Clarence Barry-austin
I mean, I'm not going to allow to just totally disavow what you've already said. If you want to explain it to me in a fashion that would bring you within the violation, I'll listen to that. What I don't want you to tell me--
David Kestenbaum
I'm going to tell you this because I just want to make sure we're understanding each other.
Clarence Barry-austin
All right. Go ahead.
David Kestenbaum
I was coming off the circle. I went into the parking area. I made a left-hand turn. To my recollection, I do not recall any traffic coming in the opposite direction.
Clarence Barry-austin
So you don't recall that, in fact, you impeded the flow of traffic in either direction?
David Kestenbaum
If impede the flow of traffic means there has to be a car present there at the time, then no.
Clarence Barry-austin
OK, then I can't accept this as a-- there is no factual basis.
David Kestenbaum
I-- I-- I-- I apologize.
I am a person who is used to speaking in public. It's, like, my job. But I could barely think straight. In my head, this went on forever, though apparently it was 3 minutes and 45 seconds, according to the tape. In the end, he refused to accept the plea bargain.
David Kestenbaum
You know how nervous I was coming into court that day?
Clarence Barry-austin
Well, now I do.
David Kestenbaum
It felt strange, but we talked about my case a little.
Clarence Barry-austin
I have to hope that you'll be satisfied with the outcome, but--
David Kestenbaum
I wasn't satis-- I wasn't satisfied with the outcome.
Clarence Barry-austin
That's not my driving motivation. It's more that the process work, and that you're satisfied that the process worked. Even if you are dissatisfied with the outcome, that you're satisfied that the process worked.
David Kestenbaum
I certainly admired your desire to apply the law in a clear way.
Clarence Barry-austin
Well, that's the job.
David Kestenbaum
I told him, genuinely, I thought he had succeeded in his mission with me. It seemed fair. I'd learned something. He said, OK. One victory for the day.
Ira Glass
David Kestenbaum. He's one of the producers of our show.
[MUSIC - NAS FEAT. LAURYN HILL, "IF I RULED THE WORLD (IMAGINE THAT)"]
No comments:
Post a Comment