Rebecca Webber writes about him at the start of her recent articles in Psychology Today. Heterosexual women might think they want the feminist ideal of a man (a sort of apron-wearing, assertiveness-free co-mommy), but here's what happened to the marriage of one man who left his testosterone at a bus stop somewhere:Elliott Katz was stunned to find himself in the middle of a divorce after two kids and 10 years of marriage. The Torontonian, a policy analyst for the Ottawa government, blamed his wife. "She just didn't appreciate all I was doing to make her happy." He fed the babies, and he changed their diapers. He gave them their baths, he read them stories, and put them to bed. Before he left for work in the morning, he made them breakfast. He bought a bigger house and took on the financial burden, working evenings to bring in enough money so his wife could stay home full-time.
He thought the solution to the discontent was for her to change. But once on his own, missing the daily interaction with his daughters, he couldn't avoid some reflection. "I didn't want to go through this again. I asked whether there was something I could have done differently. After all, you can wait years for someone else to change."
What he decided was, indeed, there were some things he could have done differently--like not tried as hard to be so noncontrolling that his wife felt he had abandoned decision-making entirely.
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Comments
His wife, he came to understand, felt frustrated, as if she were "a married single parent," making too many of the plans and putting out many of the fires of family life, no matter how many chores he assumed.
Two things are funny about this, the first being the number of women, some of whom have commented here that insist a guy doing more chores is all that stands in the way of a better relationship. The second being how this guy realizes its still someohow his fault that his wife left hm, even though he did and was everything she claimed to have wanted in a mate, but couldnt be bothered to COMMUNICATE she didnt really want.
Much easier to dump the beta male you claimed to have wanted and fucked up your kids lives then go thru the arduous task of talking to your husband
but I've learned that it's truly about growing to become a better husband.
And can I say, this is the icing that tops bitchman cake? Jesus fucking christ man, your wife left you because you didnt have the balls to stand up to her and now that shes left you "learned" what its about. "Truly" Holy shit, that statment right there proves you didnt learn a thing - maybe they guys wife did try to talk before she went out to find a man with a real penis
And then we have this gem
Carly* is a nonpracticing attorney who
(got herself an MRS. degree and then) married a chef. "I valued character, connection, the heart," she says. "He was charming, funny, treated me amazingly well, and we got along great."
But over time, intellectual differences (Sure) got in the way. "He couldn't keep up with my analysis or logic in arguments or reasoning through something, ($20 bucks says he got tired of marathon arguments she had to win no matter what) or he would prove less capable at certain things, (keep it vauge, noone will see thru that)or he would misspell or misuse terms. It was never anything major, just little things."
Carly confides that she lost respect for her chef-husband. "I didn't realize how important intellectual respect for my partner would end up being to me.
More likley the appeal of an artist type not earning enough money is what was lost
Posted by: lujlp at January 20, 2012 2:02 AM
This was brilliant. This is the first realistic assessment of what makes for a good marriage that I have ever read. My dh and incorporate all of this every day. I also totally agree that women are more prone to disillusionment with their partners than men. Have you ever read chick lit? I call it girl porn bc it is a totally unrealistic view relationships wherein the girl is never called on her bullshit and the guy loves her no matter what crazy crap she does. Most of all, there is never a possibility that HE will become disillusioned with HER.
I don't believe in soul mates either. I believe in making a realistic assessment of what you want and what your partner is offering. If they don't match, leave and move on to the next guy. It sounds cold, but it keeps you from being locked into relationships like the one described in Amy's column this week. That is not FWB, it is a desperate woman hoping that the guy will change his mind about her and become a better lover. She would rather cozy up to this half life than do the hard work required to get a real life.
Posted by: Sheepmommy at January 20, 2012 8:03 AM
You've read my columns on pornotopia versus romance-o-topia, which evolutionary psychologist Catherine Salmon writes about in a very smart chapter in "Evolutionary Psychology, Public Policy, and Personal Decisions," a book she also co-edited with Dr. Charles Crawford. We'll be discussing this on my radio show this weekend:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/amyalkon/2012/01/23/advice-goddess-radio-amy-alkon
Here's a column on this:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/07/when-hairy-palm.html
And another:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2005/10/leering-impaire.html
Both referencing Salmon's book and chapter mentioned above.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 20, 2012 8:07 AM
I'm always a little amazed at how hard some people's relationships are. I understand, because my first marriage was like being tortured with paper cuts, but it doesn't have to be like that.
Simply doing more chores isn't always the answer to a happier relationship, but sometimes it is. If the reason for the discontent is because she's exhausted from working a full-time job an cleaning the house and cooking and taking care of kids, then taking on some extra chores can keep her from feeling like a domestic slave. Of course, this isn't always what's wrong with the relationship, and it's not what's wrong with the relationship here.
Posted by: MonicaP at January 20, 2012 9:08 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this isn't about testosterone, but about a textbook example of a borderline wife who felt entitled to everything and who can't tolerate someone standing up to her.
Posted by: Joe at January 20, 2012 9:10 AM
No Joe you missed the point, he grew to realise she couldnt stand someone NOT standing up to her
Posted by: lujlp at January 20, 2012 9:27 AM
This is typically what happens (what luj explained just above) -- that women don't want wimpy yes-men. Robert Glover talks about this on my radio show:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/amyalkon/2011/12/12/advice-goddess-radio-amy-alkon
And more so in his book, No More Mr. Nice Guy: http://amzn.to/uX0dRR
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 20, 2012 9:30 AM
This is very depressing. Essentially you are saying that men who have a pleasant demeanor must act contrary to their nature or risk being divorced and losing day to day access to their children.
Wouldn't it make more sense not to get married if you don't want to live a charade? Or maybe move to a country in which the divorce laws aren't skewed against men?
Posted by: Bill C at January 20, 2012 12:05 PM
"Men Want Better Sex, Women Want Better Men."
http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/p/introduction.html
Posted by: lsomber at January 20, 2012 12:35 PM
I think you're setting up a straw woman here, Amy. I don't believe that the feminist "ideal" of a man is "a sort of apron-wearing, assertiveness-free co-mommy" who doesn't have any testosterone.
If there is a feminist ideal, I suspect it's a man who's not dominant, someone who's willing to treat a woman as an equal. And not being dominant is not the same as being assertiveness-free or lacking testosterone.
Posted by: JD at January 20, 2012 1:28 PM
No. And briefly, because I have to take my nap, feminists will tell you that men and women are the same, and it is only social learning that makes them different. (Idiocy, debunked by a mountain of studies and just looking around real life, to boot, but they still insist it's Vogue Magazine and Playboy that causes men to prioritize women's looks, etc.) This insistence that they are the same leads confused, well-meaning men, to tuck their balls behind some box in the garage and behave like ball-less doggie boys...at which point, their wives have contempt for them and start looking around for a real man.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 20, 2012 2:01 PM
Interesting read, Isomber...
The takeaway I get, regardless of gender, is that it's not enough to be a pleaser no matter what our society says. You will never please them enough. I did a lot of the same things this guy did, and all I got from it was abuse and derision.
I am the one that left, which mighta shocked her, but essentially I was the one trying to make her happy. What arrogance, like you can make someone else happy.
Thing is, while there are certain trends and such, there isn't a specific template that applies every time.
Being a bastard to avoid being a doormat isn't the answer. BUT. This also means that collision avoidance techniques honed over the years might be the wrong answer. You may NEED to collide. It may not be pretty, ESPECIALLY if it is expected that you will roll over...
But this is where you find out if you got together with someone truly selfish, that will brook no compromise. Or someone that maybe wants you to make a decision, but is testing you.
In the end if this sort of testing is all there is, it's prolly wasted time, but maybe you get lucky and just a little remembrance of WHY it is that she liked you in the first place, will be enough.
Chances are that was when you were you, and not what she wanted you to be. Yeah, some women are going to tell you that they can make you better by changing you. Oftimes they get bored with the result. They may wish you were this or that, but that doesn't mean that it is the correct thing to change. We wish for lots of things we will never have.
The wishing may be more important than the having.
Posted by: SwissArmyD at January 20, 2012 2:19 PM
The symbolic matters, too. In my own relationship, if there's any tool to be wielded (beyond a nail file) and my boyfriend is around, he will be wielding it. I did use a screwdriver myself yesterday to fix the top thingie on my teakettle, but only because he was 2,500 miles away at the time. Men feel good about getting to be the man in a relationship. Why take that away from them?
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 20, 2012 2:25 PM
feminists will tell you that men and women are the same, and it is only social learning that makes them different.
Yes I know that many (although not all) feminists believe 100% in nurture. I don't buy that (but neither do I buy what you seem to believe: 100% nature.) But, as I said before, I don't believe this leads them to desire an "assertiveness-free" man who is testosterone-free, never questioning anything they say or do.
...at which point, their wives have contempt for them and start looking around for a real man.
Women don't have the same definition for what a "real" man is.
To evangelical women, a "real" man is probably one who makes all the decisions in the household. To feminists, a "real" man is probably one who gives their opinions equal weight. Other women may consider a "real" man to be one who will listen to them and consider their opinion, but they still want him to be "in charge."
Posted by: JD at January 20, 2012 2:42 PM
I don't buy that (but neither do I buy what you seem to believe: 100% nature.
Oh, this is so tiresome. Don't tell me what I believe. It's irritating and causes me to respond to silly and trivial comments that I would otherwise ignore (in favor of reading and annotating another chapter in Baumeister and Tierney's book).
Culture comes out of biology. Read Boyd and Richerson and AJ Figueredo. I've got too much to do to provide intellectual crutches for the wee of mind at this moment.
Somebody please take corrective action on the rest.
Oh, and also look up Griffin Hansbury (who had a sex change and began taking male hormones) in my columns to understand the difference testosterone makes in how one sees potential sex partners.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 20, 2012 2:58 PM
The symbolic matters, too. In my own relationship, if there's any tool to be wielded (beyond a nail file) and my boyfriend is around, he will be wielding it. Men feel good about getting to be the man in a relationship. Why take that away from them?
It matters to some people (you're obviously one of them.) Not so much to others.
Some men prefer girly-girls, the kind who wouldn't be caught dead with a hammer or hacksaw. Other men like tomboy types, the kind who can use power tools.
I like building stuff -- I've put up a fence, three decks, and two sheds and have built all my own CD and bookshelves -- but my masculinity doesn't depend on doing those things by myself nor has it been threatened by a girlfriend pitching in. I met a woman five years ago who lives a few blocks from me. She bought a fixer-upper and did a lot of the work on it herself, including plumbing and electrical. I really admire her for that. It doesn't make her any less of a woman to me. It makes her more of a well-rounded human being.
Posted by: JD at January 20, 2012 3:02 PM
Culture comes out of biology.
My apologies. I shouldn't have said "you seem to believe: 100% nature." I should have said: you do believe: 100% nature.
Posted by: JD at January 20, 2012 3:08 PM
That's not what I believe (it's an oversimplification -- which you seem prone to).
From the Amazon descrip of Boyd and Richerson's "Not By Genes Alone," a book which I've actually read and annotated (Unlike you, I don't just pull things out of my ass in blog comments):
"Richerson and Boyd convincingly demonstrate that culture and biology are inextricably linked"
Meaning, they show, through evidence.
Go away. I'm wasting too much time dealing with your comments and I have work to do.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 20, 2012 3:12 PM
So I believe Mr. Katz' main problem is that being married to a Cluster B sucks. (To reply to Luj's comment "... he grew to realise she couldnt stand someone NOT standing up to her", the real problem is that she couldn't stand either one. Such is the "logic" of borderlines.) However, third-wave feminism does do a lot to encourage and justify any borderline tendencies that a woman might have. It gives women that follow it permission to engage in cognitive dissonance regarding men and a lot of other topics. To a third-wave feminist, the ideal man is one who will be alternately sensitive and macho, and who will divine which one he is supposed to be from moment to moment.
Posted by: Cousin Dave at January 20, 2012 3:26 PM
an oversimplification -- which you seem prone to
So writes the woman who says that the feminist ideal of a man is a sort of apron-wearing, assertiveness-free co-mommy, and that men can't feel good about getting to be the man in a relationship if their honey happens to use a hammer.
Go away. I'm wasting too much time dealing with your comments and I have work to do.
You crack me up. I've seen you do this with other people too. If you don't want to respond to a comment, then don't. By all means, please attend to your work.
Posted by: JD at January 20, 2012 5:01 PM
the real problem is that she couldn't stand either one.
That's kinda what I was thinking, Dave.
To a third-wave feminist, the ideal man is one who will be alternately sensitive and macho, and who will divine which one he is supposed to be from moment to moment.
Do you think it's only women who are third-wave feminists who want both sensitivity and machismo in a man?
Posted by: JD at January 20, 2012 5:07 PM
"...the top thingie on my teakettle..."
Adorable. Don't hurt yourself with those big technical words!
"Do you think it's only women who are third-wave feminists who want both sensitivity and machismo in a man?"
I'm guessing you do, too.
Now, what are you going to find?
Posted by: Radwaste at January 20, 2012 8:30 PM
"If there is a feminist ideal, I suspect it's a man who's not dominant, someone who's willing to treat a woman as an equal."
... which is by definition, a beta male.
Funny how just about everyone who tries to mess with natural instinct fails miserably.
Posted by: Mr. Lion at January 21, 2012 11:17 AM
He thought the solution to the discontent was for her to change.
Apparently she thought differently. And did he think that was actually going to happen?
Posted by: bandit at January 21, 2012 11:42 AM
I see this issue a lot. The problem is not that feminists want a man with no balls. It's that they want a man with balls who will be all the things a man was once defined as, but can't bring themselves to say it, or act on it, because of the nature of feminists.
There's a reason that women have more than they have ever had before, yet are unhappier than they ever have been. They will not admit that they want a man to be a man, so they can be a woman to that man. You can fight what's been our nature for thousands of years.
Here's advice to all the feminists that have unhappy lives. Find a man, let the man be a man, be the woman with that man. Your happiness will immediately improve.
Posted by: Steven at January 21, 2012 11:52 AM
That should read:
"You can't fight what's been our nature for thousands of years."
Posted by: Steven at January 21, 2012 11:54 AM
Female hypergamy. That's all you need to know.
Women are attracted to alphas for adventure, sex, and mating. Then they want a beta to raise the children.
If you are a beta (or lower) male, you need to understand that if you get involved with a women with children, you aren't getting laid, and if you get involved with one without children, you aren't getting laid after the children are born.
Feminism unleashed female hypergamy. Thus feminism begat Game.
Posted by: brian at January 21, 2012 12:00 PM
"Go away. I'm wasting too much time dealing with your comments and I have work to do."
I think I just fell in love with Miss Amy...
Posted by: Kevin at January 21, 2012 12:02 PM
I have to completely agree with the notion women want a man willing to assert themselves vigorously and often.
My previous relationship with a women whom I absolutely was bat shit in love with, we got engaged and somewhere along the line I lost my balls and unfortunately her as well.
It hurt like hell and took me a long, long time to realize that the biggest issue between us was my desire to please her no matter what.
With my current girlfriend, I have no problems basically 'being the man'. Sometimes it pisses her off, but you know what? Ultimately she loves it and has said so.
Posted by: David G. at January 21, 2012 12:16 PM
"Go away. I'm wasting too much time dealing with your comments and I have work to do." I think I just fell in love with Miss Amy...
Aww, thanks. And I love being called Miss Amy, although at some point I hope to be referred to as "The Dowager Empress" (when I'm 103).
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 21, 2012 12:20 PM
Mr. Lion: ... which is by definition, a beta male.
Perhaps the "feminist ideal" is a beta male instead of an alpha male. That doesn't mean beta males have no testosterone, or they they're "assertiveness-free", the kind of men Amy proclaimed to be the "feminist ideal."
It just means that beta males don't have to dominate everyone in order to feel secure in their masculinity.
Funny how just about everyone who tries to mess with natural instinct fails miserably.
How so?
Posted by: JD at January 21, 2012 12:39 PM
Huh. I could have been a wife like that except I wouldn't marry a guy like that, having somehow figured out early in life that I couldn't marry someone I didn't respect. My husband is the one who could stand up to me, and we will have been married 25 years in June. It's not obvious by watching him, either, as he is a quiet, bookish physician who engages in practically no "hypermasculine" activities (well, except Boy Scouts & hunting) and he's great with the kids. But he won't let me or anyone else push him around. Sometimes it's frustrating, but that's the trade-off for having someone we can rely on.
Posted by: Dana at January 21, 2012 12:46 PM
I recently read an article where a woman extolled the virtues of the 'ideal man'
In every instance, it came down to 'he suborns his wants and desires to mine in every instance'
Posted by: BigSoph at January 21, 2012 1:28 PM
Always what's missing in this Big Me age of narcissistic self-esteem is that a married couple is just that: More than the sum of either one, a pair.
Marriage is not a commercial proposition, but just as economic outcomes rely on division-of-labor, "marginal utility," specialization, so a successful synergistic pairing has its own dynamic, more than any sum-of-parts.
All else equal, marriages --and parents-- succeed not for what they do who they are. For better or worse, rich or poor, in sickness and health, good mothers provide bedrock consistency, good fathers teach mainly by positive example. Kids are presciently aware of Love: Where Love is, much may be forgiven; where Love is absent, nothing else much matters.
I have been married thirty years. Our elder daughter is a biochemist (I can't even spell it), our two sons are both Eagle Scouts. Mom hustles and bustles, drives everybody nuts; I sit back, laugh a lot, never criticize and absolutely never play favorites. So we're happy; and academic-ideological claptrap has precisely zero bearing on how we got that way.
In brief, a good marriage requires devotion to each other, a joint effort. Good parenting is no mystery, but it very much an adult enterprise. Finally, if you would know how an old married couple's parenting worked out, look no further than the kids they have so subtly molded. That labor-of-love is beyond words, which is likely why so many self-centered "happiness" dissertations are utterly beside the point.
Posted by: John Blake at January 21, 2012 1:43 PM
"...the top thingie on my teakettle..."
Adorable. Don't hurt yourself with those big technical words!
OK, so what is the technical term for the top thingie on a teakettle? I work part time in a big box, and get questions with terms like that all the time- from men and women. Half the battle in getting the customer what they need is figuring out what they are asking for.
As far as my 33 year and counting marriage, we both figured out early on that the answer to "Sex?' is always "Yes." no matter which half is asking. (Sometimes us guys really aren't in the mood- though not often.) The only exceptions are actual physical illnesses. Upchucking in the middle kind of ruins the mood. Oh, and sex cures headaches.
We share decisiions- and I listen to her. And remember the mantra- She gets to make all the unimportant decisions, and when it comes right down to it, not all that much is important.
Most "alpha" males would consider me a beta- but I'm not. I don't run around acting rough and tough and telling people what to do and try to dominate them. Don't have to. When self-proclaimed alphas need something actually done---- they come to me and ask. Politely. Chances are, I'll know how to do it. Being a jack-of-all-trades is a useful hobby. And if they've pissed me off in some way, well, I don't have time...
Posted by: Gospace at January 21, 2012 1:46 PM
Dana: But he won't let me or anyone else push him around.
Significant difference between a guy who won't let his wife, or anyone else, push him around and a guy who always needs to be dominant.
Posted by: JD at January 21, 2012 1:54 PM
Amy, thanks for catching this horrific misandric article. How did our culture get so twisted that a hard-working man who does everything right ends up as the discarded bad guy who learns that it was all his fault? I was utterly dumbstruck that the article had not a word of disapproval for the wife, who was willing to throw out the daddy of her little girls.
Posted by: Paul at January 21, 2012 2:41 PM
The issue of frivolous divorce is covered most effectively by Dalrock:
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/
Posted by: Paul at January 21, 2012 2:43 PM
I spent 20 mins this week attempting to MAKE hubby make a decision. At the end of all my effort, I had to make the decision anyway. SO I can relate to the "never makes a decision" and "single married mom" trains of thought. Not leaving while I ahve young kids-not that I would anyway, the grass is rarely greener-but I can understand the massive frustration that can come with that. It's not that DH isn't a good dad-he is. It's just that I make ALL the decisions. What school, what Dr treatments, what food, where we go, what we do....it's tiring.
Posted by: momof4 at January 21, 2012 2:48 PM
I've been reading about how making decisions is cognitively fatiguing and some people conserve cognitive energy by not making them -- which has consequences: doing nothing can sometimes be a problem, and maybe you piss your wife off a bit.
One interesting way to decrease your cognitive load is to have routines so you don't have to make decisions. I think I knew this intuitively -- I am very comforted by routine. I eat the exact same breakfast every day, for example. And if I could, I would eat steak and buttered green beans at all other meals.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 21, 2012 3:06 PM
JD: It's clear Amy is practically begging you to dominate her.
Dude, how clueless can you be?
Posted by: fustian at January 21, 2012 3:34 PM
The poor schmuck described is a Beta with no Alpha qualities.
Read www.marriedmansexlife.com to see the recipe for balancing Alpha and Beta.
I was that guy during my first marriage.
It sucks.
Posted by: Bill at January 21, 2012 3:57 PM
momof4. You come here often?
It might be useful to reflect on what happened when DH actually made a decision. Perhaps he was schooled in proper husband deportment.
Perhaps not. But it would be irresponsible not to think about it.
People do what they do for a reason.....
Posted by: Richard Aubrey at January 21, 2012 4:12 PM
JD: It's clear Amy is practically begging you to dominate her.
Au contraire, my dear fustian. She's the one requiring me to submit whenever I have something to say.
Posted by: JD at January 21, 2012 4:23 PM
The woman who comes home to her househusband and does more cleaning is often angry because the man cleaned to his idea of order and cleanliness rather than hers. I know more than a few women who are the slobs in the relationship compared to the men- my Mom is one of them. She keeps a clean house but my Dad prefers perfect order and would start tossing junk mail and vacuuming the living room after a 12-hour work day. But he NEVER criticized her- usually it was our fault for not helping out.
When women act like this the issue isn't equality in the home it's CONTROL. They want the house kept THEIR WAY; after all- they pay the bills so they should call the shots, right? The dishes might be done, the child might be bathed, the laundry might be folded, but the mirror in the bathroom has some spots and look at how that bed is made! And he has the nerve to expect sex?
Posted by: Jeff with one 'f' at January 21, 2012 4:51 PM
I'm a lucky man to have found a woman 30 years ago who likes who I am and wouldn't dream of trying to change me. I feel the same about her. No it isn't all sunsets and walks on the beach. I am free but out of respect for her and for the relationship I don't rub hurtful things in her face because I can. She doesn't go looking for things to get upset over. I've never been in her purse and she has never been in my wallet. She says if any woman thinks she can get me away from her, they are welcome to try. Her confidence is justified.
Oh,and my mother-in-law knits little pouches for my guns. Life is good.
Posted by: SurferDoc at January 21, 2012 5:16 PM
It just means that beta males don't have to dominate everyone in order to feel secure in their masculinity.
Alphas are just that way. And betas? Well they try to act like alphas because that attracts the ladies.
I have been to dances where a scruffy unkempt bad haircut alpha attracted the ladies and the perfectly groomed betas sat pining over their beers. You could see it in their eyes. "What has he got?" Presence.
The alpha just exuded a presence and the betas were covered by an invisibility cloak. Of course it sucks. But that is the way it is. We are not all going to live happily ever after. In fact very few will.
Amy will never run out of business.
Posted by: M. Simon at January 21, 2012 5:21 PM
Best fuckin' part:
"Oh, and my mother-in-law knits little pouches for my guns"
The MIL every man dreams of.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 21, 2012 5:25 PM
Usually, women want men to do exactly the opposite of what women say. This is because women are turned off by male compliance.
Posted by: Toads at January 21, 2012 6:13 PM
Actually, no need to focus on the evils of feminism or to go to "anti-misandry" sites, which are often repositories of woman-hating losers. Take the shortcut that doesn't come with all the bile. Read No More Mr. Nice Guy!, by Robert Glover. Like Glover, I'm a reformed doormat. You don't have to get into the men vs. women stuff. You just need to behave with integrity, as a man. Glover's book is a quick read and I get countless thank you emails from men who've read my frequent recommendations of it in my column. While the pickup artist books teach men how to trick women into bed, Glover shows men how to be the man who can get a woman. And again, by becoming himself, with full integrity -- full masculine integrity.
My radio show with Glover is here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/amyalkon/2011/12/12/advice-goddess-radio-amy-alkon
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 21, 2012 6:59 PM
Elliott Katz for some reason was unable to post this, so he emailed it to me:
I'm glad the Psychology Today article that began with an interview with me sparked this discussion. What is the underlying cause for somany men being in this situation? Many men today weren't taught the insights about being a man that fathers and other older male role models used to teach younger men. What are these manly lessons? Show leadership. So many men so fear being accused of being controlling they have gone to the other extreme and leave all decisions to the woman. This is why many women feel like single parents. Make decisions. A man who avoids making decisions is shirking his responsibilities. I couldn't count the number of single women who told me how fed up they are when a man asks them on a date and can't even choose a place to go for coffee. He wants her to decide. Take responsibility. Don't blame your wife, even if you feel she pushed you into doing something that you knew would turn out badly. Nobody has any sympathy for a man who says he's a victim of a woman.
Elliott Katz
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 21, 2012 7:25 PM
Amy,
Actually, no need to focus on the evils of feminism or to go to "anti-misandry" sites
I strongly disagree. Many articles on those sites are very well-written, and cover a vast number of areas about misandric laws, etc. that you would not cover here.
which are often repositories of woman-hating losers.
Not true. The Western world so overwhelmingly pampers women that simply pushing back is not 'misogyny'.
While the pickup artist books teach men how to trick women into bed,
Completely wrong. You don't have a very good grasp of the subject. There is no 'trickery' involved in self-improvement.
Those seduction-related sites are invaluable for the single man seeking to navigate a field rigged against him. Far from being 'losers' they are in fact those who worked to become supremely successful with women.
Amy, you need to recognize that the problem is far more complex and diverse than the token anti-feminism that you seem to partake in.
Posted by: Toads at January 21, 2012 8:57 PM
> the problem is far more complex and diverse
> than the token anti-feminism that you seem
> to partake in.
Hey now, whaddya know! It's another one of those guys...!
Posted by: Crid [CridComment at gmail] at January 21, 2012 9:12 PM
You don't have a very good grasp of the subject.
Funny, because I wrote in my column about some positive things from a book by Mystery. I must have just channeled that stuff without opening the cover.
those who worked to become supremely successful with women.
See, the thing is, you don't have to "work" at all sorts of tricks; you just need to become a man and a man of integrity.
Also, if you want to advertise for other sites here feel free to contact me by email for rates. I've removed the advertising bits from your comments.
And yep, Crid, you got it absolutely right on "those guys." Yawning as fast as I can!
Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 22, 2012 1:02 AM
TO: JD
RE: Maybe....
To evangelical women, a "real" man is probably one who makes all the decisions in the household.-- JD
....you should go back and read the latter part of Proverbs 31.
Pay particular attnetion to how the 'virtuous wife' RUNS, e.g., makes decisions, on the management of the household. How she 'considers a field and buys it'.
This is hardly the passive-decision maker of the household.
Hope that helps....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[A good house is from your parents. A good wife is from God.]
Posted by: Chuck Pelto at January 22, 2012 5:00 AM
TO: All
RE: What a Gross Misunderstanding, i.e., a 'Crock'
There's a difference between fighting for what you want in your relationship and being in direct control of your partner, demanding that he or she change, says Real. -- article cited
The REAL difference is between 'fighting' for (1) "what you want" and (2) what is actually right.
The challenge is in determining HOW you determine what IS 'right'. What are the 'game rules'? Where are they written? Or do you make them up as you go along?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Who can find a virtuous woman. Her worth is greater than rubies.]
Posted by: Chuck Pelto at January 22, 2012 5:37 AM
It just means that beta males don't have to dominate everyone in order to feel secure in their masculinity
Heres the thing though, that they arent secure in their masculinity is what makes them beta males. And there are plenty of beta males who try to overcompenate by trying to dominate everyting around them - but it doesnt make them alphas
OK, so what is the technical term for the top thingie on a teakettle?
Umm, a lid? ;p
She's the one requiring me to submit whenever I have something to say.
Only when you say something totally at odds with reality and reaserch and your responses show you never bothered to liten to the other side of the debate
Posted by: lujlp at January 22, 2012 6:59 AM
I've got to say Mr Katz personal post makes him sound far more reasonable and intellegent then the way the author of the article portrayed him.
Quite frankly the article made him seem grovelingly appologetic for his failings while not really understanding what that failing might be
I think he's fallen into a different sort of trap though; while its obvious from his comment he understands where he went wrong in the realistionship, it seems to me he has absolved his ex of any wrong doing.
I'm still curious to know if there were any attempt at communication or counseling, but quite frankly short of phisical abuse or a realsionship so toxic that you are physically incapable of being civil for the sake of your kids - NO ONE, let alone a stay at home non working parent should have the right to destroy their childrens lives in order to secure short term happiness
Posted by: lujlp at January 22, 2012 7:14 AM
"It might be useful to reflect on what happened when DH actually made a decision."
I chopped his balls off and dropped them in the pickle jar. Because what else could possibly scare a grown person from ever making another decision?
I've been coming here for several years. Got drawn in by the advice column. Spent the last 8 days in Disney with the fam though, so not recently. Was a great week!
Posted by: momof4 at January 22, 2012 7:36 AM
"Do you think it's only women who are third-wave feminists who want both sensitivity and machismo in a man?"
No, of course not. But there's a huge difference between a woman looking for a particular combination of traits in a man, and that woman expecting her man to make all of his traits and emotions subservient to her. (The same holds true if the genders are reversed.) In the same manner that street gangs have encouraged tendencies in men that are least compatible with civilized society, third-wave feminism has done for women.
Posted by: Cousin Dave at January 22, 2012 8:09 AM
....you should go back and read the latter part of Proverbs 31.
Disagree Chuck Pelto. You seem very confused and have twisted that biblical passage into your own modern feminist leanings. Weird much?
Posted by: Susie at January 22, 2012 10:24 AM
momof4.
I presume you're joking. But the issue for men raised traditionally is that you should never make a woman angry, never hit a woman (of course), never lose your temper with a woman, never get personal in an argument with a woman. All of which gives women an edge in arguing.
Eventually, some guys give up. After which, naturally, the SO scorns them for being rollovers.
You may recall the brief life of "The Surrendered Wife". Turns out she was a control freak. When the SO of a control freak does something right without direction and instruction, it does not do to admit it. So even doing something right gets the DH hell. So he becomes passive.
Presumably women married to passive guys didn't marry them because they were passive, or even despite their passivity. May be exceptions, but if it happened after the wedding, there's likely some history to look at.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey at January 22, 2012 10:35 AM
TO: susie
RE: Really?
...you should go back and read the latter part of Proverbs 31. -- Chuck to DJ
Disagree Chuck Pelto. You seem very confused and have twisted that biblical passage into your own modern feminist leanings. Weird much? -- Susie to Chuck
How so?
Please give me specifics as to how what is written about the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31 I've "twisted into [my] own modern feminist leanings". [NOTE: It's really odd that an airborne-ranger could possibly believe in 'feminism' in the first place. I'd like to hear how you can twist 27 years in the infantry—from enlistment in 1970 and retirement in 1997 as an LTC, airborne, ranger, logistician, can become a 'feminist'. Heck. I'm opposed to women being forward of the COMMZ.]
Looking forward to your explanation.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[God is alive....and Airborne-Ranger qualified.]
Posted by: Chuck Pelto at January 22, 2012 11:48 AM
Oh, geez, the wannabe is back. You're not qualified any more, Chuck. You retired 15 years ago - according to you.
The proper description of your career - if, indeed, there was one, which I doubt because real officers do not act as you have on this blog - would include the term "former" or "formerly".
Posted by: Radwaste at January 22, 2012 1:12 PM
Me: To evangelical women, a "real" man is probably one who makes all the decisions in the household.
Chuck: you should go back and read the latter part of Proverbs 31.
Chuck, thanks for your comment. I always like playing Bible verses.
I did read Proverbs 31 and the only thing I could see relevant to decision-making was the "she considereth a field, and buyeth it" thing. That doesn't, of course, mean she makes the decision on her own. Perhaps it's subject to her husband's final approval.
Anyway, we also have these:
Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
About ten years ago, around the same time I was posting on a feminism message board, I also came across an evangelical women's message board and posted there for a while. A lot of those evangelical women talked about how they willingly let their husbands make all the decisions. Some even said that their husband told them who to vote for in elections and they were completely fine with that.
Anyway, those women may not be typical, and what I should have said was: To evangelical women, a "real" man may be one who makes all the decisions in the household.
My point was as noted above: that women don't have the same definition for what a "real" man is.
Posted by: JD at January 22, 2012 1:47 PM
lujlp: Heres the thing though, that they arent secure in their masculinity is what makes them beta males.
Well, your thing is different than my thing. We'll have to disagree.
She's the one requiring me to submit whenever I have something to say.
Only when you say something totally at odds with reality and reaserch and your responses show you never bothered to liten to the other side of the debate.
WHOOOOOOOOOSH!!! The sound of a joke flying above lujlp's head.
Posted by: JD at January 22, 2012 1:57 PM
Thanks, Dave. I agree there's a huge difference between a woman looking for a particular combination of traits (like sensitivity and machismo) in a man, and that woman expecting her man to make all of his traits and emotions subservient to her. So are you saying that you believe women who are third-wave feminists expect their man do that?
Posted by: JD at January 22, 2012 2:06 PM
"So are you saying that you believe women who are third-wave feminists expect their man do that? "
Yes.
(What, you expected a long-winded explanation?)
Posted by: Cousin Dave at January 22, 2012 6:33 PM
TO: JD
RE: Play & Learn
Chuck, thanks for your comment. I always like playing Bible verses. -- JD
Good on you.
RE: Buying a Field
I did read Proverbs 31 and the only thing I could see relevant to decision-making was the "she considereth a field, and buyeth it" thing. That doesn't, of course, mean she makes the decision on her own. -- JD
If you want to read more into it than is actually there, you're welcome to it. But application of Occam's Razor says she did it on her own.
RE: Other Verses
You left out:
She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Do you suppose her husband follows her around as she shops? Telling her what to purchase? I hardly think so. He's off doing other things, e.g., running a business, managing the farm/vineyard, etc. In other words, she makes decisions. Your earlier comment indicated you don't think 'evangelical women' make decisions.
She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
She's obviously a merchant/manufacturer in her own capacity. That requires decision making on her own. Or do you suppose her husband hovers over her? I think I addressed that earlier.
RE: Head of the Household
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. -- JD citing that Old Book
That hardly means that 'evangelical women' don't make decisions of their own.
I suspect you probably don't know very many of them in the first place, so your frame of reference is rather 'limited'.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.]
Posted by: Chuck Pelto at January 23, 2012 10:17 AM
If US women are still wondering why no men want to get married, this article should make it clear. Why in the world should you marry a woman who is absolutely impossible to please. And then when she divorces you, after you try to do everything she SAYS she wants, she gets everything.
There was a time when if your man had a decent job, showed you some consideration, was never abusive, treated the kids well, and never had any affairs, that was enough. Now they have to be some paragon of perfection, and the woman is still unfilled if not sufficiently intillectually challenged.
Posted by: richard40 at January 23, 2012 12:09 PM
TO: JD
RE: Your 'Point'....
My point was as noted above: that women don't have the same definition for what a "real" man is. -- JD
....is appreciated. And applicable to the vast majority of women amongst US. But the REAL evangelicals don't have that much of a problem with that.
This does not include just any woman who calls herself a 'chrsitian'. Most people here call themselves that, but darn few of them actually are. [NOTE: I had that sort of 'issue' myself, before January 1990.]
RE: However....
....I think there is a more common denominator than the so-called feminists' definition of a 'real man'.
Based on observation and experience, most of these feminists never REALLY loved their man in the first place. They have no real love in them. They tired of their men when they didn't need them, i.e., were through using them— =any more.
REAL love wouldn't leave a spouse when the going got 'tough' or they became interested in 'trading-up' or had got what they wanted from them. And that applies to either gender.
These people we see every day are just using each other for whatever purpose they desire. And when they are through using them, they dump them.
That applies to the poos sod in the article. That applies to all the celeb 'marriages'—what a misnomer—we see. That applies to the vast majority of divorces. The exception being honest-to-gosh adultery. And even a good part of those could be attributed to people-using-people, instead of actually loving them.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[You never really know a woman until you've met her in court.]
P.S. But by then it's too late.....
Posted by: Chuck Pelto at January 24, 2012 2:49 PM
P.P.S. The Indefinable REAL Man....
....is just so much smoke and mirrors. Psyops on their part to keep us 'confused', i.e., 'off balance'.
When was the last time you watch Jack Lemon in How to Murder Your Wife? Notice the little tete-a-tete between Lemon's attorney's wife and the misses at the little dinner party.
The move was done in the 60s. But I've experienced that sort of mind-boggling treatment in the late 80s. And I'm confident that DH (above) has had the treatment too.
This sort of behavior on their part is—as we say in the Army intel community—a 'key indicator'. You see anything like this in your 'partners' behavior., WATCH OUT!
Something like:
• I don't like your friends. Even though you were friends with them for a long time and she was accepthing of them during a long relationship before marriage.
• You drink too much. Even though you don't get drunk. And, when you stop drinking for a month or more and point that out to her....if she gets angry at you....well....guess what.
These and so many others are 'indicators' that (1) she didn't love you in the first place and (2) she's about to file against you.
The vast majority of divorces are filed by women against their husbands. And, if some psychologist had the gonads to research it, they'd find out that the claims were, for the most part, bogus.
Posted by: Chuck Pelto at January 24, 2012 3:06 PM