'Seeking Asian Female' Takes A Close Look At A Fetish

MAY 11, 2013 9:00 AM ET

KAT CHOW

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Filmmaker Debbie Lum poses 

with Steven and Sandy, 

her documentary subjects, on 

their wedding day.

Susan Munroe/Seeking Asian Female

It's hard to watch Seeking Asian Female, Debbie Lum's uncomfortably close look at the phenomenon some call "yellow fever" — when usually non-Asian men fetishize Asian women as romantic or sexual partners — without squirming. And at first, it seems like it wasn't so easy for Lum to document the phenomenon.

"I had to fight the urge to turn around and leave," Lum says in a voiceover, right before she meets the character we know only as "Steven" for the first time. She told me this guy had one of the "worst cases of yellow fever" she has seen.

Steven, an earnest, bespectacled, white American man with an unsettling penchant for Asian females, is not exactly the most appealing of potential suitors. He has a tendency to evaluate women based on their level of "Chineseness." As he beckons Lum inside his messy apartment, he tells her with unabashed glee: "You look very Chinese, with the bangs. You know I like that." Later, Steven excitedly describes his love interest Sandy as "looking so Chinese. You can't look any more Chinese than that." What makes him an expert on looking Chinese is pretty unclear, though he doesn't seem too concerned about that.

He seems to lust after Asian women for their supposed beauty and docility. "I mean I'm an old guy, I'm 60," he tells Lum before meeting Sandy, musing about his ideal woman. "Do I want the farm girl to take care of me? Do I want... an intelligent business woman to help me grow back and forth? What do I want? ....There's this Vietnamese movie called The Scent of Green Papaya that has this servant girl who cooks these beautiful meals. Gee, would it be like that?"

Not quite.

Meet Sandy, a 30-year-old woman from the Anhui province in China. Sandy finds Steven on an online dating site and seems to be seeking a potential entryway to the U.S. and some economic stability. (She takes two separate photos of them and makes a sort of endearing, sort of creepy couples picture, much to his delight.) Steven visits her a few times in China, they hit it off and she comes to the states on a K-1 engagement visa.

Sure, Sandy takes care of him. But she's hardly the demure lady he hoped for, just as he's hardly the flashy American she might have expected. Throughout the film, a frustrated Sandy describes wanting to get out of the relationship as soon as she has enough money and schooling.

The film has a whole bunch of flashing warning signs that say this relationship Might Not Be A Good Idea. I cringed a lot. When a frustrated Sandy confesses that she'd "lose face" if she told her family and friends in China about her house-less, money-less American beau, I found myself asking, Why are you doing this?

And yet.

And yet. Over the course of the film, something remarkable happened for me. Sandy and Steven, together, started to seem like it may not be such a bad thing after all.

Steven kisses a photo of Sandy, his bride from China.

Debbie Lum/Seeking Asian Female

There was something unsettling about the film, and my reaction to it. Why was I feeling sympathetic to Steven, who fetishizes Asian women? Can a relationship, borne out of something perhaps a little twisted on both sides, evolve into something genuine? Is it even fair to judge someone else's relationship? Lum, who like me is Chinese-American, told me that she began making the documentary because she was sick of dealing with men (usually non-Asian) who shared Steven's creepy fascination with Asian women. But as she made the film, Lum's thoughts changed, sort of like mine.

After Lum settled on Steven as a subject for her documentary, she thought the film would be about his relationship with Sandy. She had no idea that she'd become intimately wrapped up in their courtship: she soon found herself their designated (and reluctant) translator, and from there, the couple's de facto marriage counselor.

When Sandy finds a cache of photos of Steven's ex-girlfriend on his computer — the ex was Chinese, natch — she freaks out. Lum translates their fight. "I can only prove my love day by day," Steven says. (Lum refuses to translate that for him.)

"This is going to be an adjustment on both of our parts," a teary-eyed Steven tells the camera after his fight with Sandy. "This is not China, and I am not Chinese. I'm hoping for the best."

As Lum gets closer to the couple, she starts to see beneath the surface of their relationship — that there might be genuine feelings.

"There's this whole other individual there," Lum said of Steven. "When I see couples like Steven and Sandy, I think about their stories now, as much as I think about what it reads as, or what it looks like from the outside."

Lum, by the way, is married to a white Irishman. But she says her relationship with her husband is different than Steven and Sandy's. "Steven and Sandy's is a kind of modern take on an old-fashioned arranged marriage," Lum said. "They went into it with a really pre-determined desire to be married above everything else, whereas my husband and I kind of just met."

Yet she sometimes wonders if others think of their relationship as one tinged by yellow fever.

Sandy and Steven, by the way, are still together. Sandy now speaks English fluently, Lum said.

I came to this film thinking of Steven as "an Asian fetishist" and of Sandy as "an opportunist." Having spent a little while getting to know them through Lum's lens, I saw their nuances. Parts of their relationship — their fights, their daily interactions, their worries — became incredibly human, completely relatable to an outsider.

Except I feel like there should be a "but."

This narrative still doesn't sit well with me. The way Steven thought about Asian women — stripping them of their individuality, layering on pre-conceived ideals, replacing people with types — was challenged when he met Sandy, a real person with layers of her own. They might make the relationship work, yes, and I might even want them to. But in that case, their road to happiness feels marred with potholes that still need to be examined and considered.

UPDATE:

A man we believe to be Steven Bolstad, Seeking Asian Female's documentary subject, responded to the post in the comments section. (We also reached out to filmmaker Debbie Lum to comment and are waiting on her response.) Here's what Steven had to say:

"So many of you like to pontificate upon my life. Making strong judgments about my motivations and my character. You must be perfect people! please let me bow down to you.
I have written several paragraphs in this conversation thread to clarify the perceptions of what people think I said or feel. But people just keep talking past me with the same stupid thoughts and not acknowledging what I have written.
So I reiterate my statements:

After meeting online and emailing and web camming daily for long hours into the night, I finally met Sandy in person nine months later on Valentine's Day, 2008. That first visit was two weeks long of 24/7 time spent together. We got to know each other very well with the help of our electronics and hand gestures.
We were quite sure we were the right thing for each other, so I made another short trip later just to meet her parents and tell them we were serious.
Another ten day visit in the fall to get to know each other even better.
Then the following year the three-week visit to go to the US consulate to prove we were really a couple in order to get the marriage visa.
By the end of May 2009 we came to the USA, and on August 22 we got married.
So as a couple we've been together six years, and as a married couple it will be four years in August.

Some people have laughed at my methods, but I find that certain things were key for me. My searching was thorough and my vetting process took time. I did a lot of communication back and forth with many people and some seemed very nice while others were not in the running. With emails you can find out quite rapidly the character and level of education of the writer and her intent. But I was pragmatic and practical in my approach I thought.
When I finally connected with Sandy we communicated every night through emails and web cam, and photo exchanges. We knew about each other's families long before we even met.
You may laugh when I say communication because the movie shows us having a difficult time. But it only became difficult when there were some serious differences or arguments. And while it appears in the film that we were always that way, truthfully that was not the case.
We get along wonderfully well, we have great chemistry.

There are so many problems with that phrase "yellow fever"
Lightheartedly I could accept it, but in reality it sounds far more strange than how I view it. Like an affliction rather than a preference.
I had never thought about it before until 10 years after the disastrous end of my second marriage. I avoided any romance for that period.
Then I saw my son find a beautiful Japanese girlfriend whom he later married. They seemed so happy and looked so nice together. She was very polite and amiable but definitely not a subservient type. She was a powerful go-getter for sure, with strong opinions, and high standards and a sense of purpose.
I thought maybe this might be a new and better direction for my life as well. So I diligently searched for ones I might have chemistry with.
Each nationality seems to have a personality of its own. Early on in my search and communications I discovered that the Chinese style of communication was what I enjoyed most.

It actually took me about a year to finally realize how I feel about it this documentary.
In the five years of filming I never once saw a "rush" of the film nor saw the direction that Debbie was taking or how the story was shaped. .
I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could. So it was with some surprise that I found the emphasis on creepiness.
The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere.
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong.
Almost all that have had their own pre conceived opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question.

Sandy wound up not liking it much at all because it revealed too many personal things about herself. She's actually quite shy and very private.
I had told her it was going to be a movie on TV but that really doesn't sink in when one woman shows up with one camera to talk. So she felt very exposed. Overexposed.
Often in the movie she would be venting off steam about a problem or situation the way people do and say things off the top of their heads. It comes across as her desires ver batem or her secret plan. She felt disturbed about that.
———-
It was originally presented to me as a documentary essay on the phenomenon of the Caucasian male
/Asian female couplings that are so predominant on the West Coast.
After several months of filming it began to focus on my quest and finally my marriage.

But the final product appeared to be a vendetta on Debbie Lum's "ickyisms". Whatever gave Debbie the "cooties".

Five years of my life expressing total open honesty to an ever peering lens for the sake of art for a project that seemed worthy then to finally being reduced to a "creepy white guy" with no verbal filter. And in an interview later she stated I had a "creepy marriage".

Never in five years had I ever seen a "rush" of the movie. Never seeing how my story was being shaped or presented or exposed.
There were many many filming sessions.
There is much on the cutting room floor that I might have been far more proud of than the scenes that were selected. She shot a lot. She shot everything. She chose what she wanted to express her way of thinking.

But even in the honest scenes that were shown, the intention of statements I made seem twisted or manipulated to please the directors predilection.

My Chinese haircut comment in the beginning, for instance, was a surprise set up by the director who showed up for that days meeting with an extreme China doll haircut that she has never worn before or since.
It is not shown in the movie (even substituted with another later shot of herself with her normal haircut) but it was a provocative move to initiate my so-called creepy reaction.
I had reacted humorously to it, I thought, when she showed up with it that day, but was framed as looking ghoulishly creepy.

Being filmed was kind of an interesting part of my life, without really knowing what was going to come of it. I wanted to document what was happening myself with a few photographs. I am an avid photo shooter and take pictures of everything. But in the film it appears as if I was gawking at her all the time.
And in the end it was Debbie who asked me if I had any more pictures of her that I had taken. That she wanted to use them for the promotion.
Then later in interviews complaining that I made her feel uncomfortable because I took a total of a dozen pictures of her all while she was filming me for five years.
Someone might say that's ironic. Someone else might say that's hypocritical.

As far as her translations saving my marriage, in review I see many instances where she planted seeds of doubt that in the end might not have been very helpful at all

The cake ordering scene was another one where I asked an innocent question to the baker iabout the color of butter cream. Debbie, the skillful editor, has made it look as though I was making a racial comment.

The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere.
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong.
Almost all that have had opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question.
Settling on their opinions from anything Debbie might have told them in the film or about me in the interview.
And Debbie serves her self.

Another thing that shapes my character poorly as a creepy guy is the absence of a back story of my life, other than a few comments about being a twice divorced parking lot cashier.
Perhaps that is all one needed to have an opinion of me. But I was not always employed thusly. I had had a successful sales company for years.
I also owned a jewelry company with 20 plus employees and 40 sales people across the country.
That my disastrous second short-lived marriage left me devastated and emotionally drained for 10 years could have been a preliminary to my search for something new. A new way to approach a marriage.

In the end the obvious beauty of an Asian woman is only part of the attraction. The fallacy of the subservient woman had long ago left my thinking, but seemed perpetuated by comments in the film and in the reviews afterwards.
I was looking for a strong woman not a dishrag. I wanted a partner.
I had methodically searched for a long time in order to find the right chemistry with the right person.
My choice was pragmatic and practical.
I went to a source where they were also looking for me.
Yet some people complain that I should probably be bumping my head against the wall in my own country with my own race.
Ahhh! The Love Police! Isn't that great?
What two open minded individuals decide to arrange between themselves is not good enough for them.
No! It's wrong they say. I'm too old, she's too young I'm too white, she's too yellow.
ABCs are in particular severely judgmental. Often trying hard to intellectualize or pontificate on the base motives of other peoples emotions. So often with an air of superiority.

My personality tends to engage with people in an open almost flirty way.
I like to start discussions in a fun manner. Even at work I have an open amiable approach to almost every customer. A slightly teasing, open but friendly way to engage each person for the sixty seconds we have to interact. It makes my drudgery seem bearable and most customers seem to appreciate that a human is talking with them instead of someone reading the newspaper and looking the other way, or worse a machine.

The director seems to take my style as a personal affront. Or so she seems to state. If joking with someone who you have become to think is a friend is considered being hit upon, please don't take it personally. Not that interested, thanks.

Many misconceptions fade away with this film. Many seem to remain. Many arise anew.
While it does capture some truths, it does not show the entire truth.
In the end it is only Debbie Lum's view of our life and her version of our life.

I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could.
My paycheck? Insults.

As Dan Hicks said,
"Where's the Money?"

This is me. I am the guy. The Steven guy.

You know I find it odd that this movie is about me and my search for my wife and is so loaded with misconceptions that really never get cleared up.
"Yellow fever" Is not a term I use but have accepted lightheartedly.
But everyone commenting here has their own idea of my motivation and what they feel I should be doing or not be doing in my own life.
I mean, I volunteered for the movie to show that a regular guy can find a regular woman on the other side of the earth with the aid of the Internet.
That two people who can connect to each other and find they have chemistry is possible.
I did a thorough vetting search. I did not pick numbers of the shelf.
I talked to people who wanted to talk to me.
There are thousands who were looking for someone to respect them
And vice versa.

So I join this conversation here earlier with several paragraphs of my complaints about these perceptions.
Still no one addresses that for me or has a question for me.
Most all just talk past me with their own heavily opinionated and arrogantly expressed positions.
They have their own ideas of me and for me and for my life. Talk about misconceptions - wow!

I have heard from a few people who understood my comments about the Vietnamese film was sarcastic.
I really was NOT looking for a submissive wife.
Nobody else caught it. Even professional reviewers.

While many comment about me being a washed up white creep only proves my point that there is not much hope for me to search in my own country.
And how would one do that? Go to bars? Find somebody at work? Bump into someone on the street?
Give me a break.

If Norway had millions of women wanting to find a husband I might have considered that. Who would object to going with my own heritage.
Alas, this is not the case anyway.

The sheer largest volume of possible sources of educated, attractive, honest, earnest, available choices for mating rests in China.
They just happen to have a preponderance of beauty and charm as well.
The numbers were on my side.
The odds were in my favor.
It only makes sense to proceed in this pragmatic manner.

As I said earlier, once we connected online we spent nine months communicating every night for long hours with emails, texts, WebCam, photo exchanges long before We met in person. Then several lengthy meetings together in China to get to know each other very well.
A rather legitimate courtship I think.
So I really resent references to "mail order bride" and "arranged marriages"

We are two people with deliberate intentions meeting online for a common purpose.

As to the power differential some referred to, If my wife had been just the farm girl she began as I might accept that criticism. But she had gone to the city and worked her way up from factory worker to executive secretary with computer knowledge and a wonderful sense of style. And she has the most wonderful sense of humor.
She had a good job, she had a cool apartment of her own, and she had bought her parents a house and many appliances.
This is exactly the strong mate I was looking for. That she was young and beautiful was my good fortune.

We get along quite swimmingly. We have great chemistry.

What's your problem?"

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Bill S • 2 years ago
I'm compelled to chime in. I'm a 57 year old WASP. I'm married to a 40 year old South Korean who was here on a tourist visa. We met in Central Park in 2005. Married in 2007 and still going strong. The term "yellow fever" insults me to no end. No fetish here. Just the cutest woman I had ever seen.

Reading the comments about the supposed subservient nature of Asian women makes me laugh. In my case, nothing could be further from the truth. Example: I watered the plants using a coffee cup, the other day, Got water all over the place. My wife sees this, grabs the empty plastic watering can and starts hitting me in the head with it. "Use this!" Hilarious.

After a disastrous 20-year first marriage to an American, I took the plunge, again. When we went to the Immigration Office so my wife could get Permanent Resident status, the Adjudicator asked about our age difference. My wife, through an interpreter, said, "My husband is so immature, it makes up for the 17 years." He stamped her passport on the spot.

If the winds are right, we'll be moving to the ROK, next year.

Best thing I've ever done. All I saw was a woman. Turns out, she's the best woman for me.
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Linda Holmes NPR  Bill S • 2 years ago
I can't speak for anybody else, but having seen the documentary, I think it would be horrible if people in your situation walked away with the impression that the term "yellow fever" as used in the film means any man who spots an Asian woman, thinks she's cute/hot/great/whatever, and winds up with her. Absolutely, that would be appalling, insulting, awful.

What's meant by "yellow fever" in the doc is guys who methodically search for Asian women only, usually not only because they're most physically attracted to them but also with a specific taste for racially stereotyped qualities they assume they'll get from that Asian woman, like subservience or "mystery" or "putting the man first no matter what" or whatever the man's own baggage may be. Steven doesn't have yellow fever because he fell in love with an Asian woman; Steven has yellow fever because he went in pursuit of *any* Asian woman on the assumption that they were all the same. I didn't take Lum to be suggesting in the slightest that her own (Irish) husband is an example, and from this description, you wouldn't be either.
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Bill S  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
The term "yellow fever" doesn't insult me as it applies to the guy involved. It insults me because it refers to the women involved as "yellow."
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Shirene Fung  Bill S • 2 years ago
I am native Chinese born moved to US when I was 11. Trust me, Asians, at least people from Hong Kong, don't regard being call yellow offensive at all. If i remember correctly we have a simple four word phrase to categorize the four different color affinity people have in this world, and it is: red, yellow, black, white.. or something like that. We KNOW our skin tone are yellow based. There's nothing shameful or offensive to recognize or talk about it. I mean our emperor used to wear yellow robes all the time. we love yellow ^^!! Any shame toward it is reverse racism/insecurities.
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Tall Coat  Shirene Fung • 2 years ago
I'm brown (forebears from Mexico) and do not consent to your 4 categories.
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William Wolff  Tall Coat • 2 years ago
This reminds me of an episode of Murphy Brown. There's an audience or something. Someone refers to African-Americans, then hesitates, unsure if that is the right adjective. One person in the audience says he prefers to be identified as African-American, another person prefers to be identified as black, another negro, another colored, and so forth.

Not too long ago, we used various terms, including Oriental. Now, I've been told, we're supposed to use Asian. I understand Oriental may be offensive. But are Indian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc. indistinguishably Asian? If I don't know a person's race or nationality, and I'm asked to identify that person, does Asian accomplish that? (And my apologies to Indians who are of a much greater variety than the single term Indian identifies.)

I have never heard of anyone complaining about being called white, but no one is white. White people are more like pink or beige. And I am orders of magnitude lighter in tone than my brother, but both of us are white.

None of us fits into a category. The categories must exist, because sometimes we must refer to them. We need to have a small number of categories. And some categorizations may be offensive to some people or all people or no people.
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stefhen bryan  William Wolff • 2 years ago
The problem is a lack of continuity in the use of these terms. All too often ethnicity, race, color, nationality, continental and religious terminologies are misguidedly used in one context. A jewish woman next to an Asian-American man, sitting next to a Caucasian boy and a Latino girl, next to an elderly black man. Those idiots in Academia have made some racial terminologies taboo: Negro, Mongoloid. They've made some color terminologies taboo: Yellow and to a lesser extent red. But what are these socially unaccepted terms being replaced by? Nothing. Which is where the confusion lies. African-American is an ethnicity term. Negro is a racial term. Black is a color term. Someone can be African-American, but be Caucasian and not be black. Think an Egyptian who becomes a naturalized US citizen. Egyptians, like many other North Africans are Caucasians. Someone can be black, but be Asian and not Negro. Think people from South Asia: Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans. They are Caucasians, but many of them are blacker than me and Im Negro. Latino, an ethnicity term, are for the most part Caucasians. There are a few Negroes in Latin America, but most Latinos are Caucasians. Anyway, hope I explained the problem........ and the solution.
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stefhen bryan  Shirene Fung • 2 years ago
Thank you very much Shirlene. I just don't know how the heck can stating a person's color classification be offensive. White or black or brown or red for that matter is not offensive. So why would yellow be offensive? Then what is the color classification for Mongoloid people, burgundy? Oh, I just used another offensive term. Well, what is the racial classification for yellow people is Mongoloid is offensive. The racial term Caucasian is acceptable, but Negro and Mongoloid aren't. What are the racial terms for black people who originate in sub-sahara africa?
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Bill S  Guest • 2 years ago
Explain? What's there to explain? Calling Asian women "yellow" is an insult. You know, like "redskin?" "Yellow fever" is a common term. I don't have a problem with it being used to describe guys in the documentary. I have a problem with it, period. Capisce?
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Abbey Gale  Bill S • 2 years ago
just going to say: redskin the term is derived from a time when early white colonists actually hunted america's native peoples and were paid a bounty for their "red skins." (i.e. this term is SUPER OFFENSIVE)
common terms can be offensive – often are.
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Vincent Calabrese  Abbey Gale • 2 years ago
The term is super offensive but I'm very far from convinced that that is the origin of the term. There are several competing theories (I grew up on the one that says it refers to early encounters with natives in Maine and Atlantic Canada who painted their skins with red ochre and/or bear grease (as mosquito repellant)).

There was a bounty order issued by George II against the Penobscot in 1755, but the proclamation makes no mention at all of the term redskin, or use the word 'red' at all.
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Gene Demby NPR  Bill S • 2 years ago
Dude, it was a straightforward question.

EDIT TO ADD: Ah, I see where we're getting our signals crossed. I've only ever heard the expression used disparagingly toward the person so afflicted — not the object of his fetishization.
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Tall Coat  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I believe only the cohort itself (out of politeness if no other reason) should use such terms as "yellow". An opposite or equivalent would be the phrase "n-word lover" which was common opprobrium in 1960's Texas for those who could not hate blacks.
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William Wolff  Tall Coat • 2 years ago
I think we should listen to what people are trying to express and put far less emphasis on how they express it. If you have a problem with what someone says, even though you don't have a problem with what the person means, then the problem is yours and you shouldn't make it the other person's.

n-word and nigger mean the same thing. As you may recall, a high level executive at a major U.S. corporation got in really hot water for telling his employees that "Only the Ns can use the n-word." In this case, the term Ns was, rightly, the problem. Had he said "Only the ABCs can use the n-word," it should have been just as much of a problem. The problem is the derogatory intent.

I'm offended by people who use substitute words with the same meaning as a potentially offensive word for no other reason than they can deny having used an offensive word. If you don't want to spell the n-word don't use "n-word" either.

And if the speaker doesn't have derogatory intent, don't put it there.
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Tall Coat  William Wolff • 2 years ago
The 1960's Texans had derogatory intent believe me or ask them. It was not a term of endearment to be told you loved someone they considered subordinate.
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susan hoo  Guest • 2 years ago
Just as "red men" referred to those we now, PC, refer to as 1st Nation(als), aka Native Americans, or even to those with negroid physical stigmata as "black".

In case you are not aware, "yellow" has also been use to refer to someone as cowardly, much as one actually versed in Bagua/Tai Chi (chuan/fan/sword etc)/TaeKwonDo etc actually work NOT to fight. Here, it is knowing that it is much better/wise to defuse a disagreement rather than to resort to violence.
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Vincent Calabrese  susan hoo • 2 years ago
I don't think the application of 'yellow' to East Asian people has much to do with the perception that they are cowardly--and I definitely don't believe it has anything to do with the philosophies of East Asian martial arts.
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William Wolff  Vincent Calabrese • 2 years ago
I think the issue is that, while yellow may denote skin color, it connotes other things, some of which are negative. In the movie Malcolm X, a fellow African-American suggests to Malcolm that African-Americans should not be called black because black has negative connotations, e.g., being associated with evil and villains.
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Tall Coat  Vincent Calabrese • 2 years ago
Perhaps an etymologist could cast light on the origins. Having emigrated to build U.S. American railroads, living at or near the bottom of U.S. American society and with no great tradition of individual rights perhaps Asians did indeed appear to be what Jesus called "meek" and provocateurs call "yellow".
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Gene Demby NPR  susan hoo • 2 years ago
Susan: I know where "yellow" comes from. i think Bill and I are coming from different places.
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susan hoo  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
doesnt sound like it. - Or, you were never called by one of these colorful names as a taunt, expletive or like.
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Paul Henning  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
Unfortunately it has tainted many Weiguk/Gaijin mens image. I have family members who fought in WWII and Korean wars, played many Nintendo games as a kid. Unknowingly then, I consumed much Asian culture. As I got older I decided I wanted to learn about east Asia as a way to connect with the experiences of my veteran relatives, and connect with a culture very different than mine. I happen to have a modest collection of imported video games and snack on Korean and Japanese foods. I know some Japanese and am in the process of learning about Korean culture. I have many Korean friends, most but certainly not all of which are female, on social networks.

The appearance of "yellow fever" frightens me so much, it really tops the list of things I would fear when dealing with eastern women. I do not have a fetish for subservient women, or Asian women (I actually wouldn't attempt to date one). I want to learn about new cultures but I must tread so lightly. Sometimes my friends will post a picture of themselves where they look really great in a Chima Jeogori (Korean trad. dress), Qipao (Chinese) or Kimono (Japanese). I feel I have to be very careful in how I compliment them. I say "you look very nice" not "beautiful" like I mean. I keep compliments about looks to a minimum and talk about cultural differences and tell stories as much as possible.
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jcb_in_ok  Paul Henning • 2 years ago
That you say, "You wouldn't attempt to date one[Asian woman]" sounds like reverse-Yellow Fever. You're eliminating a whole group of people due to their ethnicity.
By no means are you alone in this. I have a friend (African'American woman) who says she won't date Asian men because, well...(she made a gesture with her thumb and index finger, indicating something small.)
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Djazzy Rizzelle  jcb_in_ok • 2 years ago
Clearly your black friend has not seen the Thai pornstar with an 8 inch penis. Racism abounds.
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stefhen bryan  jcb_in_ok • 2 years ago
He said he wouldn't date one. How could that be reverse anything? Thats his preferences. Billions of Chinese people who date and procreate with other Chinese people are eliminating several groups of people due to their ethnicity. Most people date their own kind. By doing so, they are rejecting "the other." In fact, at the micro level, by choosing someone, you are rejecting billions of others.
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France's Bacon  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
That's the definition as I've come to understand it, and it describes the way I've been treated by certain men who have acted like they already knew me without getting to know me because of how my face looks.
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Capt. Commie Obamnik  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
If it works for both of them I don't see a problem. Whatever turns you on (between consenting adults). If she doesn't mind his kink, and he recognizes and accepts the risk of her opportunism (a.k.a. "her ticket to The Land of the Big PX" in military slang), then good for them. I did not see the documentary, but according to the article it sounds like things have worked out so far for the couple. (And if it really made the producer's skin crawl, nobody forced her to do a documentary about it.)

Being a "man of a certain age," natural that I would be smitten with a younger woman, but a 30 year age difference would set off my Dupe Alarm. Have to consider the chances that she'll stay with me long enough to get her hooks into me in divorce court & then run off with the pool boy...
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Marge W.  Bill S • 2 years ago
Interesting comment. I think it speaks to something anyone who is in an interracial marriage, as my husband (Han Chinese) and I (American - white) are, encounters at times. Some observers often think there must be some kind of fetish involved because they are too close-minded to date someone outside of their race. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that not everyone who doesn't date outside of his or her race is racist and that there are people who begin interracial relationships out of some type of fetish. The point is that interracial relationships are like any other type of relationships, sometimes they begin for crappy reasons and often people on the outside of them assume all kinds of things about them they cannot possibly know for sure.
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Michael Kagan  Bill S • 2 years ago
Similar experience with only a four year age difference and a Chinese spouse. She was already a citizen and quite successful and I never had any "yellow fever" (she found this story offensive) or dated an Asian woman before her. Sometimes people just see another person and not a race. And no one would take my spouse as subservient.
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Samuel Thompson  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
I could have gone down that road. But I decided that I just do not want to intrude on the culture of other people. I would rather merry a red-neck woman that can shovel snow, chop wood, and dress a chicken all in the same day. An Asian woman simply cannot do that. At least the kind my dad married. She is just over sensitive and needs a lot of care. I also do not want to go along with the culture. I just want to be normal red-neck. That is how my biological mother raised me to be and so that is what I want to be. I do not want to go down the path my father did. Especially now. I have just become what I want to be. So that just something that seems out of the question for me. So even though my step mom thinks I should marry an Asian woman. I will not since I just do not find them functional on a homestead or appealing to look at. For I have never heard of a red-neck Asian woman.
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Joe Goff  Bill S • 2 years ago
i know right!!! noone knows that over there the woman is the head of the house, and has alot of influence over what the man does, even though outwardly they look like they are totally submissive
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Ann Huber  Joe Goff • 2 years ago
Well, that sounds just like 99% of American households!
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France's Bacon  Bill S • 2 years ago
In my opinion, it wouldn't be an accurate phrase to describe you, regardless of the implications behind the first word in the phrase. In my mind that phrase refers to an attraction to the stereotypical features and qualities that Asian women are believed to possess, which essentially means that the person who is afflicted with it doesn't recognize the individuality of the person to whom he is attracted to, and he not only wants her to conform to whatever stereotypes he likes, he doesn't recognize that there is a unique individual there. The reason I would always cringe when it was said about anyone I ever dated was because to me it was like saying, "Well obviously she's not unique or interesting, so it must be 'yellow fever.' That would explain it."

As you described meeting your wife and your attraction to her, you don't have it, no matter what it's called. You sound like a man in love with a woman for who she really is.
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Duncan Scrymgeour • 2 years ago
This report raises issues about objectification as well as potential overtones of racism largely as the result of the burlesque way Steve describes his attractions. Those issues can be unsettling, but most of us know people who demonstrate an exclusive attraction to a particular race or set of physical features. If those of us who find ourselves exclusively attracted to black men or Middle Eastern women or younger or older partners were to have our attractions scrutinized, how many of us would feel completely comfortable with other people judging them in detail? As long as two people enter into a consensual relationship unconstrained by economic imperatives or the demands of others, it's difficult for me to judge their character even when I'm made uncomfortable by their honesty.
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freedumb fries  Duncan Scrymgeour • 2 years ago
"even when I'm made uncomfortable by their honesty"

plus one
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Taco Salad • 2 years ago
What about Asian American women? They don't have to be from overseas to be objectified according to stereotypes about Asians. I know people who carry the same fetishes toward anyone of the skin-type, regardless if they speak English as their first language or not, Americanized or not.

As an Asian American, I see this happen all the time to both boys and girls, we being objectified as "exotic".

This isn't unique to just Asian Americans either. All people of any ethnicity have been objectified and fetishized just by the color of their skin. Jungle Fever, Latin Fever, Yellow Fever, it's all the same: Strip someone of their humanity and only see them as a "cute" stereotype fit for marriage and to make beautiful babies.

Hearing, "Teach me Chinese, teach me Japanese so I can be well with the ladies. I want to have a geisha princess, I want my own little school girl in a skimpy uniform, I want her to act cute and 'kawaii'," is INCREDIBLY patronizing.
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somesome11  Taco Salad • 2 years ago
I guess that isn't too much a shock to hear, I know we all do generalizations but us whiteys are probably the most vocal about it (probably because we have the lowest risk).

I find Asian women attractive, but that's just physically. I also find Hispanic and white women attractive, all just for different "stereotypical" features that tend to go with those groups. However, liking Asian women because you want to be a demanding jerk and push someone around? That's a little more disturbing, even more shallow then my shallow attractions.

A relationship tends to be based upon many things, and physical attraction is part of it, and yes part of it is also finding someone who fits your "ideal" of a spouse to an extent. But people who are set that their partner MUST have those features tend to be the types that never stay in a committed relationship because those are just shallow features on the surface. But, there's also the aspect that wanting to make something work is important in a relationship, and I guess there is even some importance to desiring the shallow features, even if they are in fact just shallow desires.
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Alex Phillips  Taco Salad • 2 years ago
As someone who is intimately familiar with this experience, I feel Asian American guys and girls have different crosses to bear.

For girls, the problem is very much fetishization, often by white guys. While this certainly has its issues, such as the extreme example provided by this article, it has some benefit as well because "exotic" for women can add a level of attractiveness. As long as your date can get past just seeing "Asian" and actually consider you on your own merits, this could be a net benefit.

For guys, I have noticed the opposite. Asian guys seem to have fewer dating possibilities because women from other ethnic groups (white, black) will discount them as being too exotic. If Asian guys want to date other Asian girls, there are fewer options because more Asian women have the option of dating outside the ethnic group than guys do, and because Asian women may think Asian guys come after them because they have no other choices
. For both, the root cause of being treated differently comes from being considered "exotic".
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Guest  Alex Phillips • 2 years ago
Are you sure you are "intimately familiar with this experience," as you claim? 
As a Chinese American (first generation), most of the non-Asian women (predominantly European, American and Latina) that I have dated have had me as their first Asian boyfriend. It's not a "fetish" for Asian men or prejudice against Asian men, instead it's the men being reluctant to step outside their own comfort zone and social circle. Of course another major factor is the society at large, but this is hardly a new phenomenon.
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Alex Phillips  Guest • 2 years ago
I'm also first generation Asian American. My experiences largely come from growing up in the South, and working as a Resident Assistant at a large university in the same region, and I got the chance to supervise 1000+ college students, of which many were of Asian descent. I had plenty of opportunities to observe relationship dynamics between college students, and the phenomena I noticed was one I observed during the several years I maintained this role.
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Marge W.  Alex Phillips • 2 years ago
I think American culture and media tends to emasculate Asian men. The young Asian guy is usually the dorky best friend, not the love interest. The older Asian guy is usually a martial arts master. He's allowed to be powerful because he appears older, and he is not as sexual as a younger man. This relates to stereotypes of older people in general, too. Of course this is not true across the board, but I feel like these are the predominant stereotypes regarding Asian men in American media. There are stereotypes about Asian women, too, of course.
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jcb_in_ok  Marge W. • 2 years ago
Agree 100%. Try to think of three hot American movie scenes where the Asian man is "getting some."
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stefhen bryan  Taco Salad • 2 years ago
Jim, objectification occurs among people of the same race. there is no way you can have an intimate,especially a sexual relationship with someone and not objectify him or her. Impossible, even if you're blind.
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Taco Salad  stefhen bryan • 2 years ago
Same race or not, that fails to justify perceiving someone as a stereotype, Asians and Asian Americans as being kung-fu masters, academic overachievers, dragon-women and wise-men, obedient and submissive, and being patronized because you look exotic.
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Michael Kagan  Taco Salad • 2 years ago
I guess we move in very different circles as I have never heard anyone speak that way and my spouse is Chinese-American.
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Linda Holmes NPR • 2 years ago
I'm so glad you wrote about this, Kat -- it's a totally fascinating movie for a bunch of reasons. The way he thinks about Asian women is, in his mind, worshipful, and yet it's so incredibly insulting, not to mention the fact that in Sandy's case, it's completely wrong. He prizes her as a marriage partner, but dehumanizes her on racial grounds by assuming that he can predict and pigeonhole her personality because she's Chinese. I absolutely 100 percent agree with folks who have pointed out that white men and Asian women are by no means the only pairing where this can happen; it can happen anywhere you crave a romantic partner because of the stereotypical characteristics you assume they'll have. You both desire them and devalue them at the same time.

It's also fascinating because it's absolutely not a marriage based on romantic love for either of them; he's looking for a Chinese wife who will (1) fulfill what does indeed seem like a fetish and (2) be very submissive to him, while she's looking for a way to come to America and achieve some kind of security and a different life. Neither of them is getting married out of romantic love, but they both feel the obligation, which comes out of relatively recent American culture, to couch their American wedding in terms of romantic love. And the more neither of them get what they wanted (he's broke; she's actually kind of a bad-ass, about as far from the submissive person he dreams of as you can get), the more they seem to get weirdly attached to each other.

The thing I found myself asking, which can come up in any situation where romantic love is not the motivating force for a marriage, is whether you can really develop romantic love, or sexual attraction or companionate love or whatever, with someone where the initial relationship was (as has already been said) largely transactional for both of them. I think a lot of people in arranged marriages would say you can, but American culture is very wedded (no pun intended) to the idea that you have to start with being in love and then learn how to be partners, where Steven and Sandy start out with good (if selfish) reasons to become partners and then try to fall in love.

The relationship by the end is very, very messy -- it's clear that both of them (at least as of the close of the film) are still motivated in part by what they were motivated by in the beginning. Steven still does have a fantasy about how things will be with his Asian wife, only now it seems to be a more specific idealization of *this* Asian wife, while Sandy is pretty clearly still thinking in part about not wanting to throw in the towel and go back. But they also have some genuine affection for each other; her insistence that her angry jealousy means she cares is kind of twisted and unhealthy, but it does seem like her hurt feelings signal that her heart is in it at least a little bit in it as opposed to it being a purely cold thing -- opportunistic, as Kat said.

I don't think you have to see it as a thing that's only about white men and Asian women at all to find it fascinating; it's about that, but it's also about selfishness and selflessness in marriages, and the intersection of sexual politics and racial politics, and lots of other really chewy, complicated things.
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Capt'n Pickup  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
Agreed, and one of those "other really chewy, complicated things" is the thirty (30) year age difference between the two. That alone is worth another documentary.
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Linda Holmes NPR  Capt'n Pickup • 2 years ago
You bet. Didn't even get into that.
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Capt'n Pickup  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
Marriage is often much more than about love, it's origins were with mergers of property and most often decided upon by others (some places this is still true) I believe that currently many fall for the romantic notions of paring but "baggage" is always included, often over looked or downplayed. These two have plenty of it.
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aaron williams  Capt'n Pickup • 2 years ago
Is the age difference worth a documentary?
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Marge W.  aaron williams • 2 years ago
Yes. 30 years is quite a lot. I know it happens often, but there is a lot of subtext there. Especially, when one of the partners is barely out of her 20s. Think how much a person, even a mature person, grows between 30 and 35 even.
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Stan Hopfe  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
50% of all marriages in America end in divorse. Romance does not always have a good outcome. Friendship has better odds!
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Michael Kagan  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
Romantic love doesn't come out of "recent American culture" or Medieval Europe as some say. It is as old as humanity. Sure people married for a variety of reasons in the past especially economics and continue to do so today.

Although the partners might make an arranged marriage work the whole idea violates the autonomy of the partners and that is a nice, recent Western contribution.
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Gene Demby NPR  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
Pretty sure Linda meant romantic love as the primary rationale for marriage. That is a *very* recent idea in the scope of human history, it's only happened in the last century-and-a-half, and can probably be chalked up to changing roles re: labor (vis a vis the Industrial Revolution). the idea of companionate marriage is even newer still.
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Linda Holmes NPR  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
Oh, heavens, I don't mean romantic love is recent and American! I mean the notion that it is the only thing that should motivate marriage is not traditional at all but is deeply ingrained here. Sorry if I seemed to be claiming all of romantic love.
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Michael Kagan  Linda Holmes • 2 years ago
Then we agree and I am glad we do.

Perhaps a misinterpretation because I have so many feminist friends and colleagues who seem to think romantic love is a relatively recent social construct. Another story.
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Abacus Grown • 2 years ago
Most of the comments on here and perhaps even the comments of the article's author itself come across as a little judgmental. Love is love and a relationship is a relationship, no matter how it forms.

Furthermore, how are we to know how Steven really feels, solely through how he expresses himself (which, to be even more fair, is filtered through the lens of this author)? As Debbie Lum encountered, she found out there were deeper layers the more time she spent with them. Perhaps we'd feel something similar if we did the same.
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Steven Bolstad  Abacus Grown • 2 years ago
Thanks for a voice of reason.
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Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
So many of you like to pontificate upon my life. Making strong judgments about my motivations and my character. You must be perfect people! please let me bow down to you. 
I have written several paragraphs in this conversation thread to clarify the perceptions of what people think I said or feel. But people just keep talking past me with the same stupid thoughts and not acknowledging what I have written.
So I reiterate my statements:

After meeting online and emailing and web camming daily for long hours into the night, I finally met Sandy in person nine months later on Valentine's Day, 2008. That first visit was two weeks long of 24/7 time spent together. We got to know each other very well with the help of our electronics and hand gestures. 
We were quite sure we were the right thing for each other, so I made another short trip later just to meet her parents and tell them we were serious. 
Another ten day visit in the fall to get to know each other even better. 
Then the following year the three-week visit to go to the US consulate to prove we were really a couple in order to get the marriage visa. 
By the end of May 2009 we came to the USA, and on August 22 we got married. 
So as a couple we've been together six years, and as a married couple it will be four years in August.

Some people have laughed at my methods, but I find that certain things were key for me. My searching was thorough and my vetting process took time. I did a lot of communication back and forth with many people and some seemed very nice while others were not in the running. With emails you can find out quite rapidly the character and level of education of the writer and her intent. But I was pragmatic and practical in my approach I thought. 
When I finally connected with Sandy we communicated every night through emails and web cam, and photo exchanges. We knew about each other's families long before we even met. 
You may laugh when I say communication because the movie shows us having a difficult time. But it only became difficult when there were some serious differences or arguments. And while it appears in the film that we were always that way, truthfully that was not the case.
We get along wonderfully well, we have great chemistry.

There are so many problems with that phrase "yellow fever" 
Lightheartedly I could accept it, but in reality it sounds far more strange than how I view it. Like an affliction rather than a preference. 
I had never thought about it before until 10 years after the disastrous end of my second marriage. I avoided any romance for that period. 
Then I saw my son find a beautiful Japanese girlfriend whom he later married. They seemed so happy and looked so nice together. She was very polite and amiable but definitely not a subservient type. She was a powerful go-getter for sure, with strong opinions, and high standards and a sense of purpose. 
I thought maybe this might be a new and better direction for my life as well. So I diligently searched for ones I might have chemistry with. 
Each nationality seems to have a personality of its own. Early on in my search and communications I discovered that the Chinese style of communication was what I enjoyed most.

It actually took me about a year to finally realize how I feel about it this documentary. 
In the five years of filming I never once saw a "rush" of the film nor saw the direction that Debbie was taking or how the story was shaped. . 
I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could. So it was with some surprise that I found the emphasis on creepiness. 
The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere. 
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong. 
Almost all that have had their own pre conceived opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question.

Sandy wound up not liking it much at all because it revealed too many personal things about herself. She's actually quite shy and very private. 
I had told her it was going to be a movie on TV but that really doesn't sink in when one woman shows up with one camera to talk. So she felt very exposed. Overexposed. 
Often in the movie she would be venting off steam about a problem or situation the way people do and say things off the top of their heads. It comes across as her desires ver batem or her secret plan. She felt disturbed about that. 
-------
It was originally presented to me as a documentary essay on the phenomenon of the Caucasian male 
/Asian female couplings that are so predominant on the West Coast. 
After several months of filming it began to focus on my quest and finally my marriage.

But the final product appeared to be a vendetta on Debbie Lum's "ickyisms". Whatever gave Debbie the "cooties".

Five years of my life expressing total open honesty to an ever peering lens for the sake of art for a project that seemed worthy then to finally being reduced to a "creepy white guy" with no verbal filter. And in an interview later she stated I had a "creepy marriage".

Never in five years had I ever seen a "rush" of the movie. Never seeing how my story was being shaped or presented or exposed. 
There were many many filming sessions. 
There is much on the cutting room floor that I might have been far more proud of than the scenes that were selected. She shot a lot. She shot everything. She chose what she wanted to express her way of thinking.

But even in the honest scenes that were shown, the intention of statements I made seem twisted or manipulated to please the directors predilection.

My Chinese haircut comment in the beginning, for instance, was a surprise set up by the director who showed up for that days meeting with an extreme China doll haircut that she has never worn before or since. 
It is not shown in the movie (even substituted with another later shot of herself with her normal haircut) but it was a provocative move to initiate my so-called creepy reaction. 
I had reacted humorously to it, I thought, when she showed up with it that day, but was framed as looking ghoulishly creepy.

Being filmed was kind of an interesting part of my life, without really knowing what was going to come of it. I wanted to document what was happening myself with a few photographs. I am an avid photo shooter and take pictures of everything. But in the film it appears as if I was gawking at her all the time. 
And in the end it was Debbie who asked me if I had any more pictures of her that I had taken. That she wanted to use them for the promotion. 
Then later in interviews complaining that I made her feel uncomfortable because I took a total of a dozen pictures of her all while she was filming me for five years. 
Someone might say that's ironic. Someone else might say that's hypocritical.

As far as her translations saving my marriage, in review I see many instances where she planted seeds of doubt that in the end might not have been very helpful at all

The cake ordering scene was another one where I asked an innocent question to the baker iabout the color of butter cream. Debbie, the skillful editor, has made it look as though I was making a racial comment.

The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere. 
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong. 
Almost all that have had opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question. 
Settling on their opinions from anything Debbie might have told them in the film or about me in the interview. 
And Debbie serves her self.

Another thing that shapes my character poorly as a creepy guy is the absence of a back story of my life, other than a few comments about being a twice divorced parking lot cashier. 
Perhaps that is all one needed to have an opinion of me. But I was not always employed thusly. I had had a successful sales company for years. 
I also owned a jewelry company with 20 plus employees and 40 sales people across the country. 
That my disastrous second short-lived marriage left me devastated and emotionally drained for 10 years could have been a preliminary to my search for something new. A new way to approach a marriage.

In the end the obvious beauty of an Asian woman is only part of the attraction. The fallacy of the subservient woman had long ago left my thinking, but seemed perpetuated by comments in the film and in the reviews afterwards. 
I was looking for a strong woman not a dishrag. I wanted a partner. 
I had methodically searched for a long time in order to find the right chemistry with the right person. 
My choice was pragmatic and practical. 
I went to a source where they were also looking for me. 
Yet some people complain that I should probably be bumping my head against the wall in my own country with my own race. 
Ahhh! The Love Police! Isn't that great?
What two open minded individuals decide to arrange between themselves is not good enough for them. 
No! It's wrong they say. I'm too old, she's too young I'm too white, she's too yellow. 
ABCs are in particular severely judgmental. Often trying hard to intellectualize or pontificate on the base motives of other peoples emotions. So often with an air of superiority.

My personality tends to engage with people in an open almost flirty way. 
I like to start discussions in a fun manner. Even at work I have an open amiable approach to almost every customer. A slightly teasing, open but friendly way to engage each person for the sixty seconds we have to interact. It makes my drudgery seem bearable and most customers seem to appreciate that a human is talking with them instead of someone reading the newspaper and looking the other way, or worse a machine.

The director seems to take my style as a personal affront. Or so she seems to state. If joking with someone who you have become to think is a friend is considered being hit upon, please don't take it personally. Not that interested, thanks.

Many misconceptions fade away with this film. Many seem to remain. Many arise anew. 
While it does capture some truths, it does not show the entire truth. 
In the end it is only Debbie Lum's view of our life and her version of our life.

I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could. 
My paycheck? Insults.

As Dan Hicks said,
"Where's the Money?"

This is me. I am the guy. The Steven guy.

You know I find it odd that this movie is about me and my search for my wife and is so loaded with misconceptions that really never get cleared up. 
"Yellow fever" Is not a term I use but have accepted lightheartedly. 
But everyone commenting here has their own idea of my motivation and what they feel I should be doing or not be doing in my own life. 
I mean, I volunteered for the movie to show that a regular guy can find a regular woman on the other side of the earth with the aid of the Internet. 
That two people who can connect to each other and find they have chemistry is possible. 
I did a thorough vetting search. I did not pick numbers of the shelf. 
I talked to people who wanted to talk to me. 
There are thousands who were looking for someone to respect them
And vice versa.

So I join this conversation here earlier with several paragraphs of my complaints about these perceptions. 
Still no one addresses that for me or has a question for me.
Most all just talk past me with their own heavily opinionated and arrogantly expressed positions. 
They have their own ideas of me and for me and for my life. Talk about misconceptions - wow!

I have heard from a few people who understood my comments about the Vietnamese film was sarcastic. 
I really was NOT looking for a submissive wife. 
Nobody else caught it. Even professional reviewers.

While many comment about me being a washed up white creep only proves my point that there is not much hope for me to search in my own country. 
And how would one do that? Go to bars? Find somebody at work? Bump into someone on the street?
Give me a break.

If Norway had millions of women wanting to find a husband I might have considered that. Who would object to going with my own heritage. 
Alas, this is not the case anyway.

The sheer largest volume of possible sources of educated, attractive, honest, earnest, available choices for mating rests in China. 
They just happen to have a preponderance of beauty and charm as well. 
The numbers were on my side. 
The odds were in my favor. 
It only makes sense to proceed in this pragmatic manner.

As I said earlier, once we connected online we spent nine months communicating every night for long hours with emails, texts, WebCam, photo exchanges long before We met in person. Then several lengthy meetings together in China to get to know each other very well. 
A rather legitimate courtship I think. 
So I really resent references to "mail order bride" and "arranged marriages"

We are two people with deliberate intentions meeting online for a common purpose.

As to the power differential some referred to, If my wife had been just the farm girl she began as I might accept that criticism. But she had gone to the city and worked her way up from factory worker to executive secretary with computer knowledge and a wonderful sense of style. And she has the most wonderful sense of humor. 
She had a good job, she had a cool apartment of her own, and she had bought her parents a house and many appliances. 
This is exactly the strong mate I was looking for. That she was young and beautiful was my good fortune.

We get along quite swimmingly. We have great chemistry.

What's your problem?
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Nokomarie3  Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
Reading your response to all this, I feel a little sad. The one thing that seems consistent with all sorts of individuals who allow documenting of their lives is a feeling of overexposure and ultimately, betrayal. The camera isn't really very candid after all.
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Hugh Horton  Nokomarie3 • 2 years ago
I don't agree. He seems more thoughtful to me.
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M H • 2 years ago
When I first met the person who eventually became my wife, one of the things she immediately was drawn to was that I knew virtually nothing about Japanese (or any Asian) culture, and had never watched any anime in my life. Tells you something about the experience of many Asian women when indifference/ignorance is actually a selling point...
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Gene Demby NPR  M H • 2 years ago
Right. A lot of people have said on Twitter and elsewhere that they look askance at dudes who approach them and who seem to be overly concerned with racial/cultural stuff. One of my closest friends calls these dudes "rice daddies" and swears that she will never date a non-Asian dude who has had more than one other Asian-American girlfriend before her.
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Michael Kagan  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
My wife experienced the same thing but it was from men not "dudes."
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Gene Demby NPR  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
Feel better now, guy?
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Michael Kagan  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
[Deleted/Banned. We're giving people a wide berth here, but please act like you like this place. Here's how we'll be moderating things at Code Switch...http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2...

—G.D.]
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joel francis • 2 years ago
This isn't much different from an arranged marriage. The only exception being that both parties agree to the arrangement (A good thing). Plenty of cultures still rely on arranged marriages where the participants may not be so happy. I haven't seen any data on the success rate, but it's probably close to "normal".

So, the guy's a little creepy, big deal. Show my a guy that's not from time to time.
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Gene Demby NPR  joel francis • 2 years ago
It's not just that he's creepy — it's that his fetish for Chinese women is pretty dehumanizing. He makes all kinds of crazy pronouncements about the way they are or should be. "Chinese women don't _____."

Um, it's a country of 1.3 billion people and a grip of different languages. To say that "Chinese women don't _____" is to turn all those people into some kind of Borg-like hive. Just because outsiders are face-blind and don't notice the plurality doesn't mean that plurality isn't there.
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Curtis Hulen  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I think you misunderstand what dehumanization actually is.
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Gene Demby NPR  Curtis Hulen • 2 years ago
And I think you miss that dehumanization is central to how racial stereotypes work.
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Curtis Hulen  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
Definition of DEHUMANIZE
: to deprive of human qualities, personality, or spirit
from: http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Having a fetish doesn't actually dehumanize anybody in the same way that owning an iPod wouldn't dehumanize underpaid laborers overseas.
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Gisele DeCorvin-McGraw  Curtis Hulen • 2 years ago
I think Gene may be referring to the reductionist tendencies that are inherently part racial stereotyping and this does apply to dehumanization. When you reduce and objectify to the point where an individual becomes an unrealistic, inaccurate cartoonish representation of an ethnic group or race, you thereby dehumanize. Look at your own quote, as it brings up the word "personality". That is exactly what is being reduced and rendered meaningless. While Webster's is useful, it is best not to rely on merely on dictionary definitions and try to think a trifle more critically, less narrowly.
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Tony Stanton  Gisele DeCorvin-McGraw • 2 years ago
Gisele said exactly what I was thinking.
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Curtis Hulen  Gisele DeCorvin-McGraw • 2 years ago
Unless you take action that actually dehumanizes someone, you aren't actually dehumanizing anyone at all. Fetishes of any kind simply aren't causing dehumanization. The only reason this even comes up is because you people are reaching out to legitimize your criticism of other people's tastes and this happened to be where the dart landed.
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Gene Demby NPR  Curtis Hulen • 2 years ago
No. Several people who've been on the receiving end of this particular fascination have said in this comment section that they have found those experiences dehumanizing, that they were being reduced to an object when some creeper tried to holler at them because of their (presumed) races.

This isn't some thought that the fetishists entertain in a vacuum; they do give it voice and they do act upon it.
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Curtis Hulen  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
However you are implying that all "yellow fever" fetishists dehumanize because at least a few do. Needless to say that's a hasty generalization and furthermore there is no causal link between this dehumanization and "yellow fever." There is correlation, yes, but that isn't equivalent to causation. Actually your inductive reasoning suffers from the very difficulties you proposed in another comment.
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Gene Demby NPR  Curtis Hulen • 2 years ago
You posted the definition but still miss how it applies here.
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Johnny O'Sullivan  Curtis Hulen • 2 years ago
Hmm. You may have an argument Curtis. Do people use the dehumanize when perhaps they should use something like de-individuate?
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Gene Demby NPR  Johnny O'Sullivan • 2 years ago
Nope. Pretty sure I know what the word means.

EDIT TO ADD: curious about what you see as the difference between robbing people of their individuality and robbing them of their capacities to be people with agency/layers/personalities.
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Andy D  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I hope that the above confusion is just an issue of semantics. The kinds of racism above can certainly "deprive" an individual of their "human qualities, personality, or spirit." Thank you NPR for the thoughtful exploration of this topic and thank you Gene Demby for putting in the effort to elevate the discussion.
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Curtis Hulen  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
If you tell me I can't wear a baseball cap at school, you are taking away part of my individuality (assuming I want to wear one), but you aren't depriving me of the basic qualities that make me human by telling me what I can and can't wear, so I am not being dehumanized. That's the difference.

Also, having a world view, whatever it is, doesn't dehumanize anyone unless you act upon it.
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E V  Curtis Hulen • 2 years ago
Yeah, and "yellow fever" fetishists are acting on it by reducing real women--in words and action-- to one, fake, stereotype. You're right, telling a student they can't wear a baseball cap isn't dehumanizing. Treating a woman like she's not her but an idea that you have in your head about what Asian women are--is.

You said it yourself. "depriving me of the basic qualities that make me human." How, exactly, do you not get this?
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Johnny O'Sullivan  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I wasn't making the distinction between robbing people of their individuality and robbing them of their capacities to be people with agency/layers/personalities.

I was making the distinction between viewing people as some fantasy ideal of their race/group/ethnicity and not as individuals on the one hand, and viewing them as less than human on the other. I'm not making any kind of argument that either of them is good.
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E Ser  joel francis • 2 years ago
Curious to know if you've seen the full documentary yet. This guy is is way more than "a little creepy"...
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a j  joel francis • 2 years ago
i think i've seen some reports that arranged marriages are more successful than not.
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Michael Kagan  a j • 2 years ago
Though they have little choice but to remain in them and say they are happy or suffer some serious social consequences.
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a j  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
i'm only going by articles i've read about stats. i'm not talking about the middle east or child brides; i was thinking more about the indian culture. besides i think some marriages are arranged by families who know each person well and can match them with compatible people.

marriage based solely on love without other considerations are inevitably going to lead to unhappiness imo.
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Gene Demby NPR  a j • 2 years ago
Do you have some links to these things you're referencing?
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Michael Kagan  a j • 2 years ago
Yes, I am sure that there are differences and your focus being more on Indian cultures is probably legitimate in noting that they often know each other. It is pretty awful for most women in the Middle Eastern cultures though and people can be socialized into accepting all manner of inequalities and unfair treatment and believe that they are freely choosing it. (Wearing a burka might be an example as well as marrying who your parents tell you to marry.)
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Joe Goff  joel francis • 2 years ago
i know in thailand if the girl reaches out then its her choice to take the mans hand in marriage, not the parents. arranged implies they had no choice in it. it was HER decision to agree to it, wether or not her family approved is another story. she may have felt pressure to do it, but who doesnt feel pressure to meet someone at some point. i know *I* am not getting any younger myself....
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K Randall  Joe Goff • 2 years ago
She wanted out of China and she thought she found a rich American.
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Joe Goff  K Randall • 2 years ago
thats kind of how it sounds in this case, but its not like that for everyone
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Steven Bolstad  Joe Goff • 2 years ago
How does it sound like that, oh open minded one?
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Petey Acorn • 2 years ago
A lot of what we find beautiful/desirable in a mate is shaped by cultural norms, social hierarchies, mainstream images of beauty, etc. But most people seem unwilling to unpack or examine these external factors and how they affect us on both a personal and societal level.

And I'm always a bit wary of those who eagerly trot out the race/ethnicity of their significant other ("My Asian/Black/Latina girlfriend/wife said so-and-so..."), as if it's some sort of badge that grants them magical knowledge about all other Asians/Blacks/Latinas.
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Gene Demby NPR  Petey Acorn • 2 years ago
That last bit has been on vivid display in the comments here. It's very "some-of-my-best-friends-are..."
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Marge W.  Petey Acorn • 2 years ago
I totally agree with you. I am married to a man of Han Chinese ethnicity from China, and I am American of European descent. While being married to him has given me the opportunity to learn a lot about Chinese customs, foods, language, and norms from his region, it is only surface knowledge about a very specific region. For that reason, it always amazes me when I hear others who are in inter-racial marriages generalize about their spouses' country of origin or race beyond very surface features. It is especially confusing to me when the generalizations about personality.
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jcb_in_ok  Petey Acorn • 2 years ago
Certainly, being married to someone of another ethnicity doesn't give you magical powers, but it does give you a window into that different culture; therefore a slightly expanded base of knowledge on the topic.
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Gene Demby NPR  jcb_in_ok • 2 years ago
But it's a "knowledge base" so tethered to qualifiers — you know, like the whole only-one-person bit — that it's not very useful. And it certainly doesn't grant people expert status, as has been the case in these comments.
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Clare Annette • 2 years ago
This is the ultimate objectification of women. This man didn't want her for anything but the way she looked. He didn't seem to care one iota about her personality, interests, intellect, etc. This is sickening.
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Gene Demby NPR  Clare Annette • 2 years ago
Lindsie- their relationship may have begun that way, but the movie suggestions that there's real affection there (or at least real commitment).

There's a scene in which Sandy seems sort of annoyed with Lum's questioning. "If I just wanted a green card, why would I be crying all the time? Why would I care about his girlfriends?"

What makes the documentary so challenging is that it becomes clear that their relationship evolves beyond being just some fetish-y transactional thing, even if that's how it began.
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Gene Demby NPR  Guest • 2 years ago
Hector, seriously. Rein it in.
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Gene Demby NPR  Guest • 2 years ago
I'm referring to antagonizing the other commenters by repeatedly calling them lonely and sad. I'm asking you to rein it in.
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Susan Price  Clare Annette • 2 years ago
Actually, I find that a lot of men practice "dehumanization" of younger women in general, no matter what their race.... spoken from experience from the now very "safe" age of 64. And I am white married to an Asian - both of us American born.
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Michael Kagan  Clare Annette • 2 years ago
That doesn't seem to be the case according to the description that is featured here. It may have started out that way and become something deeper. It seems much deeper than the middle aged well off white American women going to South America for poor teenage lovers the subject of another documentary.
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K Randall • 2 years ago
When you marry someone without knowing each others languages, you are marrying a stranger and the reality of who that person really is going to have intrude at some time, it can be an unpleasant surprise. However, this has been going on for a long time, all those war brides from WW1 & 2, etc. Any man who marries someone half their age from a poorer country has to know that the prospect for immigration to the US is the main attraction for the woman. If that doesn't bother you, then you get what you deserve.
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jcb_in_ok  K Randall • 2 years ago
No offense, but you're wrong. You can know a lot about a person without a common spoken language. Ask any two musicians.
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Kristy Lin • 2 years ago
proof that racism goes both ways--whether it be hatred or fetishism. Like many commenters before me, the line between preference and fetish is drawn when you like me before I even open my mouth. When all is seen is the blanket that is my race.
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Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
This is me. I am the guy. The Steven guy.

You know I find it odd that this movie is about me and my search for my wife and is so loaded with misconceptions that really never get cleared up. 
"Yellow fever" Is not a term I use but have accepted lightheartedly. 
But everyone commenting here has their own idea of my motivation and what they feel I should be doing or not be doing in my own life. 
I mean, I volunteered for the movie to show that a regular guy can find a regular woman on the other side of the earth with the aid of the Internet. 
That two people who can connect to each other and find they have chemistry is possible. 
I did a thorough vetting search. I did not pick numbers of the shelf. 
I talked to people who wanted to talk to me. 
There are thousands who were looking for someone to respect them
And vice versa.

So I join this conversation here earlier with several paragraphs of my complaints about these perceptions. 
Still no one addresses that for me or has a question for me.
Most all just talk past me with their own heavily opinionated and arrogantly expressed positions. 
They have their own ideas of me and for me and for my life. Talk about misconceptions - wow!

I have heard from a few people who understood my comments about the Vietnamese film was sarcastic. 
I really was NOT looking for a submissive wife. 
Nobody else caught it. Even professional reviewers.

While many comment about me being a washed up white creep only proves my point that there is not much hope for me to search in my own country. 
And how would one do that? Go to bars? Find somebody at work? Bump into someone on the street?
Give me a break.

If Norway had millions of women wanting to find a husband I might have considered that. Who would object to going with my own heritage. 
Alas, this is not the case anyway.

The sheer largest volume of possible sources of educated, attractive, honest, earnest, available choices for mating rests in China. 
They just happen to have a preponderance of beauty and charm as well. 
The numbers were on my side. 
The odds were in my favor. 
It only makes sense to proceed in this pragmatic manner.

As I said earlier, once we connected online we spent nine months communicating every night for long hours with emails, texts, WebCam, photo exchanges long before We met in person. Then several lengthy meetings together in China to get to know each other very well. 
A rather legitimate courtship I think. 
So I really resent references to "mail order bride" and "arranged marriages"

We are two people with deliberate intentions meeting online for a common purpose.

As to the power differential some referred to, If my wife had been just the farm girl she began as I might accept that criticism. But she had gone to the city and worked her way up from factory worker to executive secretary with computer knowledge and a wonderful sense of style. And she has the most wonderful sense of humor. 
She had a good job, she had a cool apartment of her own, and she had bought her parents a house and many appliances. 
This is exactly the strong mate I was looking for. That she was young and beautiful was my good fortune.

We get along quite swimmingly. We have great chemistry.

What's your problem?
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B D  Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
If I were you, for the sake of your marriage and sanity, I would cut off the computer now and go to bed.
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Stan Hopfe  Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
Steven, I find a significant amount of the comments here are offensive and racist! I have a couple of women friends that are happy in their interracial marriages. I am sure they would offended if I asked them how their "fetish" (hispanic fever, black fever, etc.) relationships were working out for them? A comment like that would certainly end the friendship.
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mystery meat  Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
keeping in mind that this is the internet and we have no way of knowing with certainty that you are who you say you are... i'm going to respond as if your identity is a given.

first. let me apologize if anything i've said here was personally hurtful, i have a dark sense of humor, but i really do hope for your and your wife's happiness and well being. that out of the way...

it strikes me that no one... not a single person on the planet... is able to see and understand their own motives and actions impartially and dispationately. i have no doubt that the feelings you have expressed here, you feel with the utmost sincerity... but that doesn't mean the film maker's perspective was wrong, nor that the viewers of that film are wrong in their assessment of you and your actions. i'm glad that things are working out, but i can't help thinking that you'd be even happier if you stopped being so defensive and tried to consider the various criticisms a little more objectively.
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Claudzilla  mystery meat • 2 years ago
I suggested that he stop reading the comments, because our views are now so skewed by the write up, he's bailing water in a hurricane.
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mystery meat  Claudzilla • 2 years ago
perhaps...
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Emiko Tsuchida  Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
I'd be curious to know your thoughts on how the film turned out, Steven. Did you think it was/is a fair representation of what happened and an accurate portrayal of your relationship?
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Steven Bolstad  Emiko Tsuchida • 2 years ago
It actually took me about a year to finally realize how I feel about it. 
In the five years of filming I never once saw a "rush" of the film nor saw the direction that Debbie was taking or how the story was shaped. . 
I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could. So it was with some surprise that I found the emphasis on creepiness. 
The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere. 
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong. 
Almost all that have had their own pre conceived opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question.
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Tiny Hands • 2 years ago
What's inherently creepy, I think, is the attached power imbalance in his thinking. You don't have to look far to find examples of it in other thinking patterns.
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mystery meat  Tiny Hands • 2 years ago
precisely.
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Ashlea Miyauchi • 2 years ago
Does the movie look at how East Asian women objectify white American men as being more masculine, more kind, or more successful than their Asian counterparts? Tell both sides of the story. I'm tired of my Japanese friends complaining that they want an American boyfriend because he helps in the house more than Japanese men. While this is moderately true, it's still just a fantasy for them.
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Gene Demby NPR  Ashlea Miyauchi • 2 years ago
The documentary focuses on one relationship and its players. The "sides of the story" it tells are specific to their particular dyad.
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Michael Kagan  Ashlea Miyauchi • 2 years ago
It is definitely true that American men will do housework more than most Asian, especially Japanese men, but I confess I didn't mind Asian women finding white guys more masculine, etc, chuckle.
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Kitty Fo • 2 years ago
GROSS! I am so disappointed by the numbers of men who are justifying the objectification of women and arranged marriages! What century are we in?? Yellow fever is the hallmark of insecure, infantile, small, feeble white men who are too terrified of a strong western woman to have a normal relationship. I'm in LA and I see it aaaaall the time.
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Abacus Grown  Kitty Fo • 2 years ago
Wow look at you jump to 5000 generalizations and conclusions in a short paragraph. Congratulations.
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E V  Abacus Grown • 2 years ago
Yeah, she's wrong though, right? All this going abroad for a spouse has zero to do with how hard it is for some men to deal with someone on their same economic/cultural footing.

I'm sure there's a legit reason for all the Asian and Russian online marriage services, that has nothing to do with any of that, haha.
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Michael Kagan  Abacus Grown • 2 years ago
Amen, quite impressive wasn't it?
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Michael Kagan  Kitty Fo • 2 years ago
Wow, what a hypersensitive response in rattling off a string of ad hominem comments that sound pretty racist. Why assume that Asian women are not "strong" as well. My Asian spouse certainly is. She overcame a great deal in her life but never saw the need to disparage others and prattle on about being "strong." What a tiresome adjective these days.
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H Cantrall • 2 years ago
Would this be less disturbing if he were a cute, 20-something, indie-rocker boy who loves anime and is obsessed with Japanese culture, and falls in love with a Japanese girl his own age? I have known more than one white boy who was treated like Tom Cruise everywhere he went in Japan, and some of them married Japanese women. Were these relationships just a fetish?

Maybe what makes the filmaker uncomfortable is that this "old white dude seeks young Asian bride" is so stereotypical and yet the reality is far more complex. It's so meta really. Steven and Sandy were both looking for stereotypes, what they got was more complicated. The filmaker was looking for a stereotypical yellow-fever relationship, and what she got was a lot more complicated.

What disturbs me is that neither of them analyze why they want this particular stereotype. Maybe that's what makes it creepy, and not a healthy interracial relationship.
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Claudzilla  H Cantrall • 2 years ago
Heather, I think you make a GREAT point that the filmmaker went into this with pre-conceived notions and wasn't prepared for what she actually got. Documentary makers who think they know what they're going to get end up not doing their subjects justice, in my opinion. I think it's a shame.
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Hugh Horton  H Cantrall • 2 years ago
In my opinion, a young couple would have been a better set of subjects, because capturing the age difference introduces another set of superficial attractions. We don't know which is the more important for their pairing. That could easily be Rupert Murdoch with his younger wife (wait, she is Asian too). I don't mean to judge regarding superficial attractions, because we all have them, though I hope we aspire to more. And only we as individuals and couples can say what is the right mix between superficial/more substantive personality qualities.
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Charles Schopen • 2 years ago
We all have a "type" something appearance driving that peaks our interest. When does someone's "type" become a fetish, and when it does, does it some how become dirty and creepy because that is the connotation carried by the word fetish. After many years with my wife and our conversations of people in this world we find attractive, I have an apparent fetish for long necks and high cheek bones. My wife's is dark hair with strong shoulders and defined upper back. Because of my 'type' or fetish I am attracted to Asian and eastern european women so I married one and we've been together coming up on three decades. All relationships are difficult and complex I find it condescending the way the writer looks upon this story. Even though she tried to some compassion and understanding at the end, it rang hollow to me, she still felt real judgemental to me.
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Olive Bazzle  Charles Schopen • 2 years ago
No, not everyone has a physical "type."
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Charles Schopen  Olive Bazzle • 2 years ago
Olive,when I was younger I thought that I had no "type" also. But over time I have realized that there are things in the physical appearance in others that I am inexorably drawn to, or attracted to. I remember the first time I saw my wife. It was while at college while waiting for a class to start. There were hundreds of people in the halls of the building, but I had remembered her. It would be six months before we would actually meet and years before we would end up dating. I can not explain why I took notice of her other than I was attracted to something in her appearance. This acknowledgement of "type" is not the foundation of our relationship. But, it sure was an important starting point. I think if you look honestly, you'll see, that in fact there are physical attributes that garner your attention more than others.
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Yeah Right • 2 years ago
I'm reminded of the movie "Crash." Remember when Terrance Howard told ludacris, "You embarrass me.....you embarrass yourself." As an American I feel that way about this guy.
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Gene Demby NPR  Yeah Right • 2 years ago
Ugh. I've actively tried to forget Crash ever happened.

(Totally bang with your larger point, tho.)
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Michael Kagan  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
"Crash" was such a patronizing Hollywood moral lecturing superficial piece of you know what that I almost gave up my liberalism of nearly 40 years.
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Claudzilla • 2 years ago
The comments above from Steven make me want to give him this advice - stay away from open forums about this movie. You feel betrayed by this filmmaker, and you know her take on your life with Sandy will skew the inmpressions of others who see it or read about it. 
I am glad you took the time to write what you did, but now, Steven, stay away. Live your life and leave us behind.
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Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
Hello Kat Chow
Perhaps you might have been setup by the premise of your fellow ABC Ms. Lum. As I feel a bit.

It was originally presented to me as a documentary essay on the phenomenon of the Caucasian male 
/Asian female couplings that are so predominant on the West Coast. 
After several months of filming it began to focus on my quest and finally my marriage.

But the final product appeared to be a vendetta on Debbie Lum's "ickyisms". Whatever gave Debbie the "cooties".

Five years of my life expressing total open honesty to an ever peering lens for the sake of art for a project that seemed worthy then to finally being reduced to a "creepy white guy" with no verbal filter. And in an interview later she stated I had a "creepy marriage".

Never in five years had I ever seen a "rush" of the movie. Never seeing how my story was being shaped or presented or exposed. 
There were many many filming sessions. 
There is much on the cutting room floor that I might have been far more proud of than the scenes that were selected. She shot a lot. She shot everything. She chose what she wanted to express her way of thinking.

But even in the honest scenes that were shown, the intention of statements I made seem twisted or manipulated to please the directors predilection.

My Chinese haircut comment in the beginning, for instance, was a surprise set up by the director who showed up for that days meeting with an extreme China doll haircut that she has never worn before or since. 
It is not shown in the movie (even substituted with another later shot of herself with her normal haircut) but it was a provocative move to initiate my so-called creepy reaction. 
I had reacted humorously to it, I thought, when she showed up with it that day, but was framed as looking ghoulishly creepy.

Being filmed was kind of an interesting part of my life, without really knowing what was going to come of it. I wanted to document what was happening myself with a few photographs. I am an avid photo shooter and take pictures of everything. But in the film it appears as if I was gawking at her all the time. 
And in the end it was Debbie who asked me if I had any more pictures of her that I had taken. That she wanted to use them for the promotion. 
Then later in interviews complaining that I made her feel uncomfortable because I took a total of a dozen pictures of her all while she was filming me for five years. 
Someone might say that's ironic. Someone else might say that's hypocritical.

As far as her translations saving my marriage, in review I see many instances where she planted seeds of doubt that in the end might not have been very helpful at all

The cake ordering scene was another one where I asked an innocent question to the baker iabout the color of butter cream. Debbie, the skillful editor, has made it look as though I was making a racial comment.

The past year of the movie making its film festival circuit I've been reading comments and reviews from everywhere. 
Some reviews have been kind and generous. Some reviews have been ridiculously wrong. 
Almost all that have had opinions about me and my intentions and motivations but have never even talked to me nor asked me a question. 
Settling on their opinions from anything Debbie might have told them in the film or about me in the interview. 
And Debbie serves her self.

Another thing that shapes my character poorly as a creepy guy is the absence of a back story of my life, other than a few comments about being a twice divorced parking lot cashier. 
Perhaps that is all one needed to have an opinion of me. But I was not always employed thusly. I had had a successful sales company for years. 
I also owned a jewelry company with 20 plus employees and 40 sales people across the country. 
That my disastrous second short-lived marriage left me devastated and emotionally drained for 10 years could have been a preliminary to my search for something new. A new way to approach a marriage.

In the end the obvious beauty of an Asian woman is only part of the attraction. The fallacy of the subservient woman had long ago left my thinking, but seemed perpetuated by comments in the film and in the reviews afterwards. 
I was looking for a strong woman not a dishrag. I wanted a partner. 
I had methodically searched for a long time in order to find the right chemistry with the right person. 
My choice was pragmatic and practical. 
I went to a source where they were also looking for me. 
Yet some people complain that I should probably be bumping my head against the wall in my own country with my own race. 
Ahhh! The Love Police! Isn't that great?
What two open minded individuals decide to arrange between themselves is not good enough for them. 
No! It's wrong they say. I'm too old, she's too young I'm too white, she's too yellow. 
ABCs are in particular severely judgmental. Often trying hard to intellectualize or pontificate on the base motives of other peoples emotions. So often with an air of superiority.

My personality tends to engage with people in an open almost flirty way. 
I like to start discussions in a fun manner. Even at work I have an open amiable approach to almost every customer. A slightly teasing, open but friendly way to engage each person for the sixty seconds we have to interact. It makes my drudgery seem bearable and most customers seem to appreciate that a human is talking with them instead of someone reading the newspaper and looking the other way, or worse a machine.

The director seems to take my style as a personal affront. Or so she seems to state. If joking with someone who you have become to think is a friend is considered being hit upon, please don't take it personally. Not that interested, thanks.

Many misconceptions fade away with this film. Many seem to remain. Many arise anew. 
While it does capture some truths, it does not show the entire truth. 
In the end it is only Debbie Lum's view of our life and her version of our life.

I volunteered for this film (without pay) for the sake of Art. I gave it all the open honesty I could. 
My paycheck? Insults. 
see more
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mystery meat • 2 years ago
oh my gosh... it really was hard to watch. and beyond the fetishism there was a really healthy dose of narcissism. steven never seemed to really ponder sandy's needs or wants until the very end. he expected her to move in and inhabit the space like a pet... a pet that cooks. ughhh...

still, steven did finally recognize, at least a little, where he'd erred. that was evident when he cleaned his apartment. i hope it works out, i hate to see people miserable... but if i'm honest, it occurred to me that if steven backslides... sandy might just kill him in his sleep =\
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Tiny Hands  mystery meat • 2 years ago
"A pet that cooks." You don't have to have yellow fever for that desire-- there are plenty of guys in the conservative Christian crowd (I'm looking at you, Acts 29) who pretty much think that's what a woman should be.
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mystery meat  Tiny Hands • 2 years ago
sad, but true.
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Gene Demby NPR  mystery meat • 2 years ago
... sandy might just kill him in his sleep =\
That's not funny. But I laughed.
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Jerry Blackwell  mystery meat • 2 years ago
Yikes! Steven might get killed in the end...Ms. Meat - she could just move out!
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Jozie Locks • 2 years ago
While a genuine affection may have developed between this
couple over time, it certainly seems that Steven’s starting place was misogynistic,racist stereotypes of Asian women. Period.
Based on what--movies, books, comic books? Who knows. His point of view is more than preferences, like tall, short, heavy or slender. The leap
that Steven makes is both attaching personality characteristics and behavioral
meanings to Asian ethnicities. That’s what stereotyping is and the meanings
have racist underpinnings, whether he knows it or not. A larger problem for me is the enormous power differential in the relationship related to her immigration status. Steven holds that power –the power to decide how and when she becomes a citizen—in his hands, whether it’s explicitly stated or not. Troubling.
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Gene Demby NPR  Jozie Locks • 2 years ago
His point of view is more than preferences, like tall, short, heavy or slender. The leap that Steven makes is both attaching personality characteristics and behavioralmeanings to Asian ethnicities. That’s what stereotyping is and the meanings
have racist underpinnings, whether he knows it or not.
Right. I'm not sure where the line between preference and fetish begins or ends, necessarily, but there's a difference between being attractive to wo/men with certain features (height, eye color) because you find those things attractive and being singularly attracted to/sexually fascinated with certain people from certain ethnic groups because of stuff you've tethered to their races, like their supposed temperaments, personalities, dislikes and likes.
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Jozie Locks  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
Exactly. He attached that meaning prior to even entering the relationship. For me, it begs the question: what happens in his relationships when the woman fails to fit his racist caricature of what she SHOULD be?
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Gene Demby NPR  Jozie Locks • 2 years ago
Did you see the doc? It's pretty clear that Sandy's not what he was expecting.
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Steven Bolstad  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
She is exactly what I was expecting. The director had shapeed it her way with her own misconceptions.
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Hugh Horton  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
Logically, what in fact is the difference between being attracted to wo/men with certain features (height, eye color) and people from certain ethnic groups? We are uncomfortable with racial groupings and preferences and I understand that; just trying to understand the logic of your statement. Based on his statements and common sense -- very few people in our melting pot of the last 20 years, going back even before Sandra Oh, have these stereotypes -- I am not buying the idea that he has tethered other non physical characteristics to his physical attraction. I am also uncomfortable with the idea of being especially attracted to only certain physical features, aside from race (there are others you could mention but we are trying to keep from going too low here). God made us to appreciate physical features but he also made us with the capability to appreciate more noble characteristics.
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Peter Travels • 2 years ago
Has it occurred to anyone to look at the other side of the picture? How about Asian women having a fetish for white men?

Seriously, it's ridiculous how no one wants to state the obvious: Asian women have their own ideas about what white men are, etc...

I've had countless conversations with Asian men who complain bitterly about being passed over in favor of White men -- even if they're less successful, have no character, and generally behave like God's gift to women (when they're in Asia).

I've travelled all over Asia, and it's not a secret that in ever major city -- rich or poor -- there are women who search exclusively for white men. It's not about poverty or economic opportunity -- why would this apply in wealthy Tokyo or Taipei?

And it's worse, Asian societies in general tend to treat white men with a little more respect than men of other races/ethnic groups. 
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Djazzy Rizzelle • 2 years ago
I'd be equally interested in seeing an expose on how Asian men are demoralized and emasculated in American culture. Seems like racism against Asian peoples is the invisible racism in America.
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michael jones • 2 years ago
The word sleaze and ewww comes to mind after reading this article
Sorry to point out the obvious but WTH is a 60 year old man marrying a woman half is age?

As a person still married 24 years to a woman from the Philippines I never had a case of "yellow fever" or whatever the latest boorish adjective of the day is

I did not select her from Cherry Blossom magazine or some online site.
We met at work, talked, hung out, dated, and got married just like regular folks.

We clicked because of our personalities, I saw and see her for who she is, and not what she looks like.
The love comes later
"Stevens" marriage as described is shallow and based on lust and pre-conceived fantasies rather than a building a life long commitment based on mutual respect

BTW for guys who think that marrying a Asian woman is better than an American girl because Asians knows place in the home, that is insulting to your mother. 
Check your ego at the door, you can get dumped just as fast as anyone else.
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Claudzilla  michael jones • 2 years ago
I just want yo respond to the age comment, michael. My parents married when my father was 44, my mother 24. He was rebuilding his life, she was mature for her age and ready to start her life. Time and place were right for them. 
If you dn't want to be judged for your relationship just because of the race difference, don't bust out judgment on Steven for an age difference.
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michael jones  Claudzilla • 2 years ago
I respect that opinion every scenario is different. However I am inclined to believe your parents married each other out of love and respect. Rather than "wife shopping" off the internet in order to satisfy an obsession as is this case here.
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Claudzilla  michael jones • 2 years ago
Well, your first comment was about the age difference specifically, not the manner of his meeting her.
If you haven't, I suggest you read the comments from Steven (in the thread but also now included in the article) for a different perspective.
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Jonathan Fein • 2 years ago
I, a jewish guy, have been with a chinese girl for the the past four years. I am disgusted by the kind of situation displayed in the documentary here and am very frustrated when other people assume that we are one of these creepy "西男东女" relationships.

We are living in Hong Kong now and I hate seeing this kind of thing because it leads others to assume that we have a similarly creepy relationship. My girlfriend is not a local servant girl. She is a capital markets lawyer and I am an investment banker - a relationship of equal education, when often it seems like these 西男东女 relationships are composed of some 50 year old retired white man with a 20-something year old local girl with a very significant difference in education and resources that may be playing a role in the match.
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Stan Hopfe • 2 years ago
I would hardly consider the sexual attraction to a human being a fetish! If there was sexual attraction to an object (I.e., balloons, garter, shoe, etc), that would be a fetish!
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Gene Demby NPR  Stan Hopfe • 2 years ago
But to the fetishist, the people they're attracted to are objects.
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Stan Hopfe  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I seriously doubt that Steven considers Sandy an object. The title to this essay is what I find objectionable.
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Hugh Horton  Stan Hopfe • 2 years ago
You make a very good point. That is the reason the film maker and the writer have a hard time putting into words their evolving view of their subjects ("and yet....something..."). The relationship in the movie is based on a superficial attraction/expectation regarding lifestyle and they decide to marry based on this attraction/expectation, not based on romantic love. We view romantic love as a higher form of love but also do not want to judge others.
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Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
I'm married to a Chinese-American woman who came here in the 70s and I always found it humorous that people assume that Asian women these days are submissive based on the old stereotypes and the small percentage of Asian women seeking to leave their poorer countries by marriage. My spouse isn't submissive in the least. In fact she is quite feisty as are many Asian women I know.

If it works for them, who are others too judge. All kinds of relationships between people of different ages, races, backgrounds, and the same sex work. Some of these comments remind me of Nietzsche's fitting line about Christians: "They spend too much time judging." But it isn't confined to Christians.
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Eric Vaessen • 2 years ago
Would people think Stephen was just as creepy if he were young, handsome, and rich?
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Clare Annette  Eric Vaessen • 2 years ago
Yes.
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Michael Kagan  Clare Annette • 2 years ago
I very much doubt it.
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Gene Demby NPR  Eric Vaessen • 2 years ago
Probably, yeah.
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Marge W.  Eric Vaessen • 2 years ago
I would
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chipper bird • 2 years ago
I don't see how being attracted to Asian women is any more of a fetish than tall, short, blonde, brunette, red head, large or small breasted, large or small derriere or feet, legs. neck....

Does being attracted to tall blonde women mean a man has a fetish for Dans, Sweds, Fins and German women? If so adverising exectives seem to think most men have this fetish. Why would being attracted to petite brunettes be a fetish?

btw What is wrong with having a fetish as long as it does not harm anyone? I thought it was part of normal healthy of human sexualuallity. Maybe the films writer/producer is uncomfortable in her own skin.
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Olli Baker  chipper bird • 2 years ago
I think it's a matter of degree. There's a difference between "being attracted" to women of a particular race and having a fetish. After all, if you're going to be attracted to women, chances are they will belong to a race (or some combination thereof). It's only a fetish when it reaches a more extreme point, where it's rooted in more than a proclivity for the way women of a given race look, or even mild to moderate romanticizing.

Also, Fin fetishes involve mermaids. If you're into tall blonde women I suggest the Finns (who created Angry Birds!).
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Gene Demby NPR  chipper bird • 2 years ago
As several people have already said — there is a big difference, actually.
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Joy2urwrld  chipper bird • 2 years ago
If someone only dated you because they thought that you would have specific characteristics such as being subservient and submissive, would you find that perfectly okay?
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Steven Bolstad  Joy2urwrld • 2 years ago
What if I only dated Asian women because I thought they were powerful organized beautiful and honest
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Petey Acorn  Steven Bolstad • 2 years ago
Which ethnic groups do you think are inherently devoid of these traits?
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chipper bird  Joy2urwrld • 2 years ago
If both partners are comfortable with it, sure. Most relationships have a dominant partner, in my experience it has usually been the woman.
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Joy2urwrld  chipper bird • 2 years ago
You're missing my point. One cannot consent to a stereotype. You asked "what is wrong with having a fetish as long as it does not harm anyone". It is harmful to apply stereotypes to a group of people and interact with them with the expectation that they will fit in a little box. I don't know your race or your gender. You can see that I am black and I am a woman. I have experienced these interactions. I did not consent to them and they were harmful. That is the problem.
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Krystal Kelly • 2 years ago
American men's fascination with Asian women is hardly unique to Asian women. I just watched a documentary on "dating tours" in Latin America--a beefed-up version of mail order brides.

There are tons websites on which you can shop for a Russian bride, a Colombian bride, or a Chinese bride. The common denominator is women in poor countries seeking a better life in America.

Women leverage their beauty to obtain the supposed "American Dream." They are exotic, they speak a different language, and they are motivated to get out of the countries in which they live. There is no way they don't know why American men are shopping for brides there, and I'm sure they use those stereotypes to their advantage.

Men leverage the stereotype that they are all rich if they are Americans. Maybe they've been unlucky with other marriages and they think that the problem is spoiled American women, maybe they want to write a check their face can't cash here in the states. But they also know why the women in foreign countries are shopping for American husbands, and they are using that to their advantage.

But is it any different than the relational transactions that happen every day here in America? Women don't purposefully marry men who cannot provide the type of life they envision for themselves, and neither do men. We all put on our most attractive faces, play up our assets, to buy that spouse. It's just the truth.

I've thought that the shift to online dating has caused men and women to adopt a "catalog mentality" for a long time. We shop for a mate the same way we shop for a computer or a new car. We shop around, make comparisons and we want the best deal for the lowest price possible. Because there is so much "inventory" to choose from, men and women are always looking to trade up. It has always been this way, but the internet just makes it easier.

Relationships have always been basic transactions. Nobody enters into or stays in a relationship that does not benefit him or her.
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B S • 2 years ago
I suffer from 'hating men with yellow fever'! I automatically dumped any man based on how much he had fetish for Asian girls and most of my girl friends are the same way. This is based on certain issues we find with these men that I shall not mention here, and this date filtration really works wonders!
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Hugh Horton  B S • 2 years ago
Why don't you want mention the issues? I will take a guess -- do you mean that the men are somewhat effeminate (or "sensitive" despite allowing a superficial quality to guide mate selection), though heterosexual, themselves?
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Matt Clara • 2 years ago
I'm unaware of any definition of "fetish" that fits the use of the word in this article. There are sexual fetishes, but those tend to revolve around things (feet) or situations (bondage). Even if one were to use the term loosely, I don't see any evidence that Steven is unduly turned on by Asian women. It's as though the author has stereotyped all men who show interest in Asian women for any reason.
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a j • 2 years ago
i don't get the big deal. men who have a fetish for obese women will marry one. a male submissive will marry a female dominatrix.

if they bomb so what? they will have deserved what they get.
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Gene Demby NPR  a j • 2 years ago
So you think that race — and all the assumptions these dudes with yellow fever assign to it — is no different from people who like wo/men with a certain body type?

Steven starts from the position that Asian women are more attractive because he thinks they'll be more docile and more pliant. It's not just that he finds Asian women physically attractive — it's that he ties their race to all kinds of other creepy old racist stereotypes.
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a j  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
you are piling on him but make no mention of her motivation in your reply. men who want to marry russian/slovak women for the same reason... do you consider them racist as well? these women are relying on those stereotypes and have a few of their own don't they?

my honest opinion is that men are becoming more alienated and emasculated by women of the west. i don't like it but i'm not surprised that some pursue foreign women because of this. there are a lot of angry white men out there, they join groups that are called 'going our own way' or somesuch. boys are starting to fall behind. if i had a boy to raise i would keep the tv turned off because i think the slanted portrayals would harm their self esteem.

i'm not a feminist so that may be why you don't understand my pov, but honestly i think that every article written portraying white males in the worst light is becoming ridiculously unfair.
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Jerry Blackwell  a j • 2 years ago
aj - Your post and position appears to be void of any realistic understanding of Western civilization. 
White males are not receivng "unfair" treatment it's just that the Western world has shifted and it's no longer the norm that white males control everything.
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a j  Jerry Blackwell • 2 years ago
if you are a white male and don't mind being marginalized that's your perogative. i watch a lot of television and whenever someone's getting battered it's always the white male, when someone is being portrayed as a dolt in a commercial it's a male. a superb case is the pace picante commercial but there are tons more. wow, i just went to youtube to copy a link and they changed it partially. the original premise was a white woman, hispanic and black male were sitting there deriding the white male from new york city.

if you think you are getting your just desserts then so be it but i would not subject my son to it. all the negatives have a subtle effect on the psyche. i just see it as 'out with the old sexism, in with the new' and if you are okay with that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Jerry Blackwell  a j • 2 years ago
I certainly don't feel "marginalized" on a daily basis. However, I also don't look to the public to justify or "validate" my exsistence. People are free to think what they want. I have no control over that.
Alternatively, whatever you feel white Western males are enduring it's not comparable to chattle slavery, lynchigs or to a lesser degree "black-face." I just think you need some historical perspective about the world we live in.
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Michael Kagan  Jerry Blackwell • 2 years ago
There hasn't been any chattel slavery in over a century and no lynchings in decades and I don't think those references help us much in understanding where people, individuals, and groups stand in relation to one another socially and economically today. Stagnating income growth, Inequality and unemployment, underemployment, loss of health insurance, plague more people today than in decades and although all are not affected in the same way many people and many families are being hurt by these problems.
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Jerry Blackwell  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
Michael Kagan - Chattel slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow, restrictive covenants and institutional racism are a part of the American experience. These historical facts make up who we are as a society as well as soem of the more pleaseant things. Ignoring them is childish. 
If you as a "self-proclaimed" white guy feel oppressed in the Americas that says more about you as a person than about the reality.
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S C  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
No lynchings in decades? Are you living in the year 2043 or 2013? Do the names James Byrd and Trayvon Martin mean anything to you? Not only was Martin blamed for being a victim but racists like Sean Hannity have glorified his murderer. It is a surprise the GOP didn't nominate Zimmerman for President last year. Racism is an enormous problem in the USA and the New Jim Crow is as vicious as the old.
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Clare Annette  a j • 2 years ago
Oh yea, the white male has it SO bad in America. 
Give me a break!
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Michael Kagan  Clare Annette • 2 years ago
Lindsie, there is really no such thing as "the white male." What you seem unwilling to do is to discriminate among members of a group which is one of the problems we spent decades overcoming as a society with respect to other groups.

It may be the case that most CEOs and professionals are white men but it does not mean that most white men are professionals or that all of them are faring well in today's economically difficult society.
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Michael Kagan  a j • 2 years ago
A female European colleague of mine (a professor of philosophy) noted that about American men in commercials. She is a bit conservative but she said American men are portrayed as "sissies." Men are often mocked as dumb and wholly motivated by sex and I am not sure I see many characters who are particularly good role models most of the time.

But I don't think it has all been reversed though I have seen some rather extreme examples of affirmative action in my profession.
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Michael Kagan  Jerry Blackwell • 2 years ago
He may be right or wrong but you offered nothing, absolutely nothing by way of an argument.
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Clare Annette  a j • 2 years ago
"my honest opinion is that men are becoming more alienated and emasculated by women of the west."

What?! How are men being emasculated exactly?

" if i had a boy to raise i would keep the tv turned off because i think the slanted portrayals would harm their self esteem."

I think the portrayals of WOMEN on television is what is truly harmful - seeing as they are constantly objectified. Girls get the impression that the only way to get anywhere in life is to be pleasing to men and to look pretty, or better yet, beautiful. And the portrayal of successful women is even worse - they are either looked down upon for displaying any emotion and if they start taking on qualities of their male colleagues, she's viewed as a b***h.

"every article written portraying white males in the worst light is becoming ridiculously unfair."

Please provide links because I have no idea to what you are referring.
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Michael Kagan  Clare Annette • 2 years ago
No girls don't accept the view that they must be pretty, etc. to "get anywhere in life." Hearing that reminds me of the right wing mantras one hears on Fox about other issues, no matter how often it is repeated it isn't true.

If that were so we wouldn't see the growing gap in education at nearly every level between the genders. Girls have lower dropout rates than boys. At least 55% of undergraduates are women, for three consecutive years more doctorates have been awarded to women than men, and parity in medical and law schools at elite universities is the norm. The income gap between men and women is closing and is not great when all relevant factors are taken into account and the recession has put more men out of work for a longer period of time. It is quite possible, even likely that women on the whole will be earning more money than men in a few decades.

At the same time women still want prospective male partners to earn at least as much, preferably more money than they do and a young man without a job or a low paying one is a nobody in our society. (Not to mention that the guy is still expected to pay for most dates regardless of how little or much money he makes.) I am not young or underemployed or single but I see the same attitudes among women regardless of their age.

Of course there are bad men with backward looking attitudes who are as out of place today as a racial segregationist. But they are not the norm.

I think we would be better off retiring the focus on gender and think about a fairer and more just society for all including better labor laws, access to affordable health care and education regardless of race, class, or gender. Any remaining inequalities would be reduced more by viewing us all as members of humanity instead of groups pitted against each other. (I will qualify that one it comes to class.)
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Clare Annette  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
1. Young girls are bombarded with fashion magazines that tell women how to please a man, that are filled with make-up and hair tips to make you prettier, filled with nice clothes to buy, etc. I don't think anyone outright says "you must be pretty to get anywhere in life," but it is implied from a very young age. This is something I have experienced personally.

2. The reason men have been losing jobs more than women is that our society is hiring people for more IT-based jobs and careers that women seem to be educating themselves for, whereas men have been losing mostly labor-intensive jobs, which are likely being replaced by machines.

3. Your view about what women want from their male partners seems a bit out-dated and sexist to me. I for one make more than my partner and don't expect that he must make equal or more. We always went dutch when we first started dating, which is far, far more common in today's dating world than it is to see a man paying for the date. I also know a lot of women who will pick up the check (regardless of her age).

4. I will stop focusing on gender when men stop trying to take away my reproductive rights, stop objectifying me, and start giving women a fair chance at employment (because, though things are changing, a man with less education than his female counterpart is still more likely to get the job) as well as fair pay (we still make $0.77 to every man's dollar).
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Joy2urwrld  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
"I think we would be better off retiring the focus on gender and think about a fairer and more just society for all including better labor laws, access to affordable health care and education regardless of race, class, or gender. Any remaining inequalities would be reduced more by viewing us all as members of humanity instead of groups pitted against each other. (I will qualify that one it comes to class.)"

I think what you're not acknowledging is the fact that we live in a society that was built on gender inequality, racism, and privilege. It's impossible to create a fairer society without first addressing the foundation of these ills. We can't simply pay women the same amount of money we pay men for the same job simply because it is fair, because there are large groups of people that think "equal work for equal pay" is not the right solution. Sure we have laws in place that are supposed to protect minorities from discrimination, but college admission officers and employers still consider race (usually to the detriment of minorities) when they select future students and employees.

My point is that we have all these discussions about gender, race, etc because people need to be educated and aware. Laws and policies that specifically address the needs of women and racial minorities are the only way to even the playing field. It is very hard to just "make everything fair for everyone", when a significant number of people do not even understand where the injustice lies.
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Michael Kagan  Joy2urwrld • 2 years ago
Unfortunately we have a lot of factual disagreement. I don’t agree with your view that our society was “built” on nothing but racism, sexism, and privilege as if that is all there is to it. It isn’t by a long shot. Millions of ordinary people who benefited little from privilege or racism have made substantial contributions to the
country and what we currently enjoy. But that is a large topic for a post.

I also don’t agree that there “are large groups of people” who think that equal pay for equal work is “not a solution.” No one will publicly voice that view and
few people hold such a view either.

The economic elite in America who stand to benefit from continued inequality is not a large group.

I agree that there is discrimination in employment (including against those over 55 I would add) but I don’t believe that race is used against anyone in college admissions on any scale at all these days and I have taught in several colleges. Inferior primary
and secondary school education and lack of affordable access to college are much bigger culprits and the latter is not confined to minorities. Another factor is having children, often many children, without fathers in the picture, and whose life prospects are inevitably limited by those circumstances.

And as I noted earlier women are at least 55% of undergraduates and higher in some larger state universities. We really have no need for affirmative action for women in universities though I often see it at the graduate level.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by a fair society. I’m not even thinking about a “level playing field” but more just basic institutions aimed at the overall good of society. This would include some laws which
help women and families such as paid family leave for sickness, paid parental
leave, but also universal health care and making college or some form of
tertiary education affordable for everyone regardless of race, class, or gender. My model is the old fashioned social democratic welfare state which we never had in the U.S. silly charges of “socialism” from conservatives not withstanding.

The relentless focus on identity politics by some on the left has done little for political discourse in my view and achieved little of practical value. But those who play race victim cards for a career such as the "Reverends" Al Sharpton, Wright, and Jackson are doing more to divide than to unite and are contributing no more to understanding than their counterparts on the religious right.
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Joy2urwrld  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
I didn't say that our society was "built on nothing but racism, sexism, and privilege" and when you phrase it that way, you change the meaning of my words. Segregation was an institution in this country for how many years? How long has it been since women have been allowed to pursue any career they desire? This country was built with the interests of wealthy, white men at heart. Patriarchy? Check. Classism? Check? Racism? Check. Sure so many other things went into the construction of this great country, but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing fairness.

I wonder if you understand the way I am using the word "privilege". In this context, I am not only referring to wealth, there are other types of privilege: "male privilege", as well as "white privilege" to name a couple. I find it highly unlikely that there are millions of people that achieved success without the advantage of any privilege whatsoever.

What do you mean no one would express the belief that "equal work for equal pay" is a bad idea? Did you watch the GOP convention? Out of 219 Republicans, only eight voted in favor of the Lilly Lebetter Fair Pay Act.

I would defend my points about racial discrimination in secondary education, but I cannot do so without linking the studies I am using as my sources and I don't have them on hand.

I actually agree with your vision of a social democratic welfare state. I just disagree that discussing sexism and racism is "identity politics" and unproductive. Every change in society happened because people were willing to raise their voices.

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Michael Kagan  Joy2urwrld • 2 years ago
We still largely disagree over the extent to which these past practices matter and I think you are not attending to much of the progress which has been made especially by women which in the last thirty years is quite remarkable. When Hillary Clinton introduced herself to one of her professors at Yale he said that as far as he was concerned she was taking a place from a man. Today Yale's law school is 50% female, has many female faculty and one very well known Asian-American woman. In the relatively short span of one generation that is remarkable. The college where I teach is well over half women which is fairly typical and at least 70% African-American which is the result of its location. Women are making tremendous progress which just doesn't receive the attention it should.

I agree that secondary education is a mess of inequalities in the U.S. which is difficult to deal with given so much is done by most local governments. I have seen no evidence of discrimination against African-Americans in college admission. I have seen a lot of evidence for affirmative action for women, African-Americans and other groups for admission to graduate school. Some of that is legitimate though less and less so in the case of women.

I'm not saying people shouldn't raise their voices I am talking about the focus of political discourse being so much about race and gender which fails to note that people of all races and both sexes are not faring well in recent decades. The focus on race and gender is also divisive, treats some groups as victims of others, namely white men as if all white men are in positions of power and privilege and victimize others. (The people I list below for example.) I would just politely invite you to think of what it might be like to be a white male who is not doing well as many are not and then ask what might be done to bring people together for the benefit of the large majority of people of both sexes or genders and races who are suffering in what has become an extraordinarily unequal and unjust society. (Just a sidebar. I am an atheist and recently we have made some progress by "raising our voices" though as a group atheists are the most dislike of all groups as all sociological studies have shown. And that dislike is largely still acceptable.)

I think we would make more political progress if we talked about justice for all and maybe, just maybe we might reach some working class and poor whites who have really been sold a bill of goods by the GOP and aided by the likes of Sharpton, Wright and others.
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Scott Shjefte  a j • 2 years ago
AJ there is lots of evidence about how men to support what you say. Men are often put down or are treated poorly compared to women... Consider how popular Father's Day is compared to Mother's Day. Consider how few times the man gets custody of the child in a divorce even when it is clear that the woman is lacking in the ability to take care of the child. Consider how few times women are taken to task for molesting young male kids while men are labeled sex fiends forever for all kinds of minor infractions that might have been just an accidental infraction. I myself never associate with young children because of the fear of being labeled such an offender. My teen age step-daughter chose to stay with me after my divorce and there were untrue rumors about it that I had to take great efforts to squash.
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France's Bacon  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
You hit the nail on the head. That is precisely what makes me uncomfortable. I don't mind if someone likes my long dark hair or the shape of my eyes, but if someone hasn't gotten to know me yet and they're already applying all those personality stereotypes to me, I back away quickly with a smile frozen on my face.
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Jerry Blackwell  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
The women and the men who play along are equally sick.
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t h  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
There is nothing racist going on here...How did you inject that...weird.
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Gene Demby NPR  t h • 2 years ago
Racist stereotypes about Asian women's ostensible docility are old and well-worn.
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okidoll e  Guest • 2 years ago
Value? Like a horse or cattle? God forbid a woman educate and support herself. So you are saying a woman would have higher value if she was uneducated and totally dependent on a man?
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Susan Fowler  Guest • 2 years ago
Attaching actual value to women based on their culture is totally racist. Assuming a woman will be "docile and pliable" because she grew up in an Asian country is racist. What the women are doing, assuming white men from America will be wealthy, is also racist.
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Jerry Blackwell  Susan Fowler • 2 years ago
I've heard this sterotype since high school. Many white American guys do believe that Asian women are more obsequious and know how to "stay in their place" compared to Western women. 
Funny enough - I've seen many Asian women play along because in some Asian communities having a white man on your arm is a "status" symbol. I think it's a sick game all the way around but I have observed it over the years.
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Beamer Harris  Susan Fowler • 2 years ago
No. The definition of racism generally relies on the belief that one's own race is better than some other. In no way is Steven doing this. He's just a simple fool for stereotypes.
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Gene Demby NPR  Beamer Harris • 2 years ago
That's too simplistic a definition of racism, Beamer, but let's shelve that for a second: why doesn't Steven's belief that a group of people is inherently subervient/obsequious qualify as racist by the very definition of racism that you've you put forth here?
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jcb_in_ok  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I didn't see the documentary, but I did read Steven's lengthy defense upthread. He used the words "polite and amiable" to describe his son's Japanese wife, and thought he'd like to marry a woman like that. Why are "polite and amiable" morphing into "docile and obsequious"?
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Michael Kagan  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
Sure, racism is about other races and their supposed traits or characteristics just as much as it is about the supposed superiority of one's own group.

But though a bit outside the scope of this immediate discussion I would note that racism exists even more nearly every where else and even between groups. I am around Asian-Americans all the time (my spouse is Asian) and mostly well educated ones. However, they stereotype each other in ways which shock many of my white friends: Chinese are materialistic, Koreans are rude, Vietnamese don't care about education they just open hair and nail salons and chicken farms.

We even heard the owner of a Vietnamese restaurant say in Vietnamese to one of her waiters "Get an extra bowl for those 'boat people.'" The Chinese came by boat to Vietnam in the early 20th century so the phrase has another racist meaning.

Hispanic friends of mine seriously mock the accents of other Hispanic groups and their supposed characteristics while adoring Spanish accents from Spain.

I even overheard a Jewish friend who when asked by his wife to do a household repair say "We get Gentiles to do that sort of thing."

Racism is hardly a whites only phenomenon and we have made some considerable progress in overcoming it in America. Let's give that its due once in while and note that few other countries, especially with such a mix of people, have made the same progress, including most European countries and certainly Australia where I once lived.
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Curtis Hulen  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
He is drawing on cultural observations/stereotypes and drawing logical conclusions from that. Making assumptions based on limited information isn't inherently racist and is actually how we survive as a species.
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Gene Demby NPR  Curtis Hulen • 2 years ago
I've been moderating the comments section for Code Switch pretty thoroughly, and several people have made the same dubious argument that you're making — that stereotypes aren't inherently racist and how we survive as a species. Each person who has put that idea forward has done so as if it were novel and as if the many people who have been on the receiving end of those "benign assumptions" are just buggin' and hypersensitive. Okay.

But the problems with this are obvious. Inductive reasoning — taking conclusions from specific examples and making them into a generalized rule — has been pilloried by philosophers and thinkers forever. Just because the premise is true (Sally and Joey and Brian and Harriet are Asian and good at jumping rope) doesn't mean it bears any logical relationship to the conclusion (Asians are good at jumping rope).

But we disagree. *shrug*

No biggie. I'll let you cook.
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Curtis Hulen  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I agree that inductive reasoning doesn't necessarily lead to valid conclusions, but that has no bearing on whether or not it is racist, which it isn't.
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Scott Shjefte  Susan Fowler • 2 years ago
Susan Fowler what would attaching value to a woman who is human be considered? Would that also be racist? How about a woman who is sane rather than insane? How about a woman who treat a man with respect? Are those all racist attitudes? People like different things in other people, a world where every one like the same thing would be a racist one. The world I would like to live in respects and honors the diversity or souls and cultures.
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Kitty Fo  Guest • 2 years ago
Please. I think we educated, confident westernized women are tired of your little boy excuses for behaving badly and objectifying women. It's not racist and its not jealousy. It's called being fed up.
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Robert Garlough  Kitty Fo • 2 years ago
I have to agree. My wife is an "educated, confident westernized women," but she is not self-centered. But then, we sought (and have) a relationship of equals.

If I could give one piece of advice to the guys out there, I'd say to think long and hard about seeking a servile partner. Marriage is for life; it is much more enjoyable when your partner is also your best friend.
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Susan Fowler  Guest • 2 years ago
Right, because being single automatically means a woman must be frustrated, lonely, and damaged in some way.
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Jerry Blackwell  Susan Fowler • 2 years ago
Yes Susan Fowler and Hector left out the part about the sixteen cats and three birds...hilarious stuff!
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Gene Demby NPR  Guest • 2 years ago
Hector: please rein it in, man.
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Michael Kagan  Kitty Fo • 2 years ago
"Little boy excuses" and "fed up" shows quite a bit of stereotyping on your part about nearly half the population.

Unfortunately, many "westernized" women are also self-centered and want the benefits of the old school chauvinism of the past; men with money and manners who flatter them and treat them as "ladies." Men still do the asking out, usually the on one knee proposing (what an absurd supposedly romantic gesture), and pay for most dates. Nice to have it both ways equality, respect and special treatment, chuckle.

I find it mostly amusing at least when I was single. I dated quite a few American and "westernized" foreign women in my 40s most of whom held PhD s (one had two doctorates) and all of them were pretty stuck on themselves and loved being complimented for their looks and dress. I suppose I should form a generalization about all educated women on the basis of those experiences.
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a j  Guest • 2 years ago
true but i think arranged marriages are going to be more successful because your mind isn't being so clouded by lust that you cannot make good decisions; you go in with the mindset that you are determined to make it work and then fall in love from that point.
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kim b • 2 years ago
These men with Yellow Fever are nothing but sexists who really can't have healthy relationships with women. They prefer this antiquated model of a "relationship" where the man is king and the woman is his property. Intimacy cannot grow from this.

And for those who say we all have preferences. Yes, we do. I, a blond woman, am physically attracted to Southern European men but not all of them are great lovers and my ex was a white blond boy! My friend loves Asian girls for their eyes but his ex was Persian and he doesn't assume all Asian women are sweet and subservient.

Here in the SF area, I've heard of many backlashes against Yellow Fever. There are many judgements and assumptions of what a Yellow Fever relationship is. Also, I was told by one guy in particular that he wouldn't date Asian women because he didn't want people to believe he was a Yellow Fever type of guy who can't get a white girl but only a woman who can't speak English and wants his bank account. Besides not being interested in a guy who would say this, I thought it was a new expression of racism/sexism given to the Yellow Fever epidemic.
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Greg Bailey • 2 years ago
Attraction between the races is as old as history itself. The current findings that Neanderthals and modern humans may have interbred suggests an even earlier connection between similar species. So in effect, this is nothing new. However, interracial desires can be a form of fetishism. If one cannot value the person beyond their physical traits, then the relationship is decidedly superficial. Expecting stereotypical cultural behavior based on one's preconceptions is a recipe for turmoil and heartache.

However, it is difficult for me to castigate couples solely on their racial choice. Interpersonal relationships are so complex, it's not easy to define the perfect arrangement. Difficulties in marriage occur across every boundary, every culture and every race. Perhaps the abyss between cultures leads to deeper understanding, and ultimately, respect for that other person. Perhaps they do not. I'm reminded of our president... the offspring of a bi-racial marriage. Would those that decry racial attraction label Barack Obama's mother a fetishist? Was her interest in black men physical, mental or both? Or was there no issue at all? Do we have a right to say what two people see in each other? It is true their marriage did not end well, but the outcome produced a decidedly amazing human being who went on to accomplish something few thought possible.

I'm less put off by "creepy" than I am for those whose don't inherently value the dignity and beauty of another person's individuality and freedom. There's nothing wrong with being physically attracted to different races; there is a problem when you don't see that spouse or significant other as just that... their own person.
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Christi T • 2 years ago
As long as he did not "purchase" her. Personally, I think YUCK, but hey, to each their own. I have a man that thinks I am the sexist thing he's every seen, it works for us, and I am grateful to be loved and to love.

I hope their marriage lasts and that they are happy...life it very short, enjoy it smiling.
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Null Mode • 2 years ago
Perhaps some of the blame for 'Yellow Fever' lies in the way some Asian countries used a certain image of their women as marketing. The cute demure Japanese woman, the super trendy Korean woman etc etc... These stereotypes did not originate in the Americas or Europe. Look even one of the examples of Stevens misconceptions is from a Vietnamese movie. Sorry to say but at least some of the blame here rests on the way Asian countries present their women to the world.
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Danny • 2 years ago
I can't ignore the fact that he is 50 years old and she is like in her late 20s, if one is to look for a better life, I would marry the first 50 year old that would take me out of my misery.
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Guest • 2 years ago
You know this whole thing is rather odd. 
The movie is about me and my search for my wife and makes certain twisted misconceptions about me
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Krystal Kelly  Guest • 2 years ago
I think the lesson to be taken from your experience is that no one just wants "to tell a story." Anytime you open up your life, you risk having it used (and slanted) to make the storyteller's point--often to the expense of yourself.
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Natalie Smith • 2 years ago
The poor girl gives the old guy her youth and he gives her economic stability she desperately needs. At least in most cases when she is 25 and he is 60+
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David Gottesman • 2 years ago
I live in South Korea for seven years, and did a fair bit of travelling throughout Asia so I'd like to think of myself being somewhat familiar with this topic. That said, I'd never consider a mail order bride service, or specifically search out an Asian woman. While I was in South Korea I dated, and had Korean girlfriends. It really is a numbers game. If I lived in Brazil, I'd probably date a Brazilian. If I lived in Australia, I'd date an Australian. Now, I did notice more men Steven's age in Korea, Thailand and Philippines looking for their girlfriend of the week, month, or potentially, their wife. On the other hand, I also saw women in these nations throw themselves at western men seeking a better opportunity. In South Korea, Korean men in more rural towns have been seeking out women from Philippines, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and China. Many of these men also promise much of what Steven wanted, but they also realized their financial situation, or career wasn't as desirable for Korean women as it was for many women they met online, married and brought to live in Korea. So do Korean men have Asian Fever because they seek out Asian women from other countries like Steven? I personally don't see it as a fetish. I see it that an individual knows what he/she is attracted to. Does someone have a Coke Fetish because they won't drink Pepsi? No, they simply like the taste of Coke better (which is clearly better than Pepsi). The biggest issue really could be that these men don't take the time to want to learn about the culture of the women they want to marry. These men don't see a difference between the countries and cultures of Asia which are all so different, and to me, that makes Asian Fever a fetish.
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Rex Rowland • 2 years ago
I had a thing recently for Japanese opera singers. Now THAT is a fetish. However, after a couple of negative experiences - living with one as my (now ex) girlfriend and later courting another - I no longer feel the need for a partner to be either Japanese or an opera singer. So I may be weird, but I'm conscious enough to know when something is not meant to be. There is definitely happiness in utilizing one's ability to adapt and not remain close-minded.
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CR Davis • 2 years ago
Men tend to be attracted to women for some visual or assumed idea of what she will be like. Women can do the same thing. This is horrible to say, but if a handsome and charismatic man tells you he loves whatever about you, that is purely an outward appearance, it somehow seems way less creepy, than a man who doesn't have much of either. And I can't believe I just said that, it really shouldn't be that way.
I love (insert race and sex), I love blonds or whatever, I love kids, I love dogs, I love women, I love men - is all kind of weird when you think about it. Like you'd love all of them?
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Kristin Lamb • 2 years ago
In a sexual relationship, everyone has a fetish. Sometimes it's severe, like Stephen's fetish for Asian women, but there's really no difference between saying "I like chicks with a little meat on their bones" or "I like men with hairy chests" and saying "I love Asian women". Yes, he is stereotyping a culture, but we all do that to some degree. For example: Middle Eastern men are angry and sullen; American women are aggressive and loud; Latinos are passionate; French women are great lovers etc... Of course, these statements are generalizations and unfair to most of the population, but we do it nonetheless. Human categorize things. We like shorthand evaluations.
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Gene Demby NPR  Kristin Lamb • 2 years ago
Kristin: "But we do it all the time" is a pretty questionable defense for doing it.

I'd argue that having a thing for Asian women or black men is very different from, say, preferring men with hairy chests. The men Lum talks to in the documentary all rule out non-Asian women, because as one says, "Asian women put their men even before themselves."

And those stereotypes often have really ugly origins. Ideas about huge black male penises were borne out of the myths of sexually rapacious Negroes who were looking to prey on white women —  a myth used as the popular justification for lynching and all sorts of other violence against black people. Likewise, the stereotypes about the sexual proclivities of women of color differ, but they popped up as rationales to justify sexual violence against them by colonial powers. ( If Latin women are so passionate, they're always willing. And so forth.)

You might see these stereotypes as harmless, but the people who are constantly on the receiving end of them might beg to differ.
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Michael Kagan  Kristin Lamb • 2 years ago
Don't forget the sexualizing of black men by some white women as Barack Obama describes his mother in one of his books.

My ex is Hispanic from Latin America and neither she nor her sister would marry an Hispanic man. Both are scientists and my ex-sister in law has been married for 30 years to a white, non-Hispanic American. Sometimes one can assess their own culture and find it wanting, especially if one is a woman.
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aaron williams • 2 years ago
this is a disgusting term. It's ignorant, a throw back. It's like calling the child of a forth generation coupling between a European and African a "quadroon". I think there is a fundamental disconnect by people who consider themselves open-minded and non-bigoted, and the use of this term.

There's a fair amount of hate and vitriol here. One thing that is sorely lacking is compassion and attempt to understand. I read "creepy, emotionally under-developed, etc". Also that there is something wrong with being attracted to a type of ethnicity and/or "race" (what a loaded term that is!), when in fact many European- and Anglo-Americans will marry within their own ethnicity.

How come no one is talking of this? These people have pre-selected their mated based on a number of assumptions, the most apparent being that person's skin color and their apparent values.

We like to think that when WE make judgements, they are good and fair. Someone else though? Not so much. More than once I can remember being "subtly" interrogated by women who consider themselves feminists, who were wanting to get a sense of my net worth and buying power. I was offended only by the sneakiness. Let's drop the pretense that we don't all objectify and (gasp) "dehumanize".

The problem here is that people want to get into other people's business.

What's wrong if a woman is docile? What's wrong if a man is attracted to that? Now reverse the sexes and ask the same question. I'm guess it is entirely cool for a woman to seek this quality in man.

And that right there is the problem. I personally wouldn't want to deal with that mentality, that dual-standard mindset, the militant hypocrisy, the lack of self awareness. Only in America. America can take a lesson or two from feminists in Europe.
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Jay Miller • 2 years ago
Is there a difference between a preference/fetish for redheaded, freckled Irish/Scottish men/women and "Yellow Fever"? "Freckled Fever" maybe? I don't understand the squirming comments. So, now we're backsliding towards bigotry? Or, maybe we haven't progressed as much as we'd like to think. Who cares what one person's preferences and predilections are in regards to who they want to partner or mate with, as long as it's consensual. And, portraying "Steven" as house-less and money-less is a joke. Maybe he doesn't own his home, but he obviously had thousands of dollars to fly to China several times and the thousands more it costs to bring over a foreign bride/groom of any nationality. And, before anyone chimes in with the argument that a case could be made that "Sandy" did not have true choice because of her personal financial situation back home, the same can be said of any relationship, between any two people. Financial stability and/or earning power is one of many attributes potential mates take into account, regardless of the denial of such factors in favor of the Hollywood version of Love, where suitors give up a six figure commission in order to race to a departing flight, arriving just in the nick of time in order to cement the bond of true love. Be real people. We're animals. We have a biological imperative to procreate. If we all desired the same thing, there would be even more war and bloodshed than there already is. I support all "fevers" of all kinds, for all people.
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Gene Demby NPR  Jay Miller • 2 years ago
Is there a difference between a preference/fetish for redheaded, freckled Irish/Scottish men/women and "Yellow Fever"? "Freckled Fever" maybe?
As at least a dozen people have said in the comments: yes, there is.
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Claudzilla  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I think what makes people see Yellow Fever as different is that if I, as a white person, find myself preferring a certain "type" that is also white, though of a particular complexion or hair-color, that's not so different from me and thus not notable or weird. The preference for Asian women by white men, where the cultural difference is more extreme, is what many find off-putting.
I'm just speculating here.
As long as a person realizes that the person they end up with will not be a cartoon version of the type they find attractive, but will be a whole person with his/her own attitudes thoughts and desires, I don't see where there is any room to judge.
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Gene Demby NPR  Claudzilla • 2 years ago
"As long as a person realizes that the person they end up with will not be a cartoon version of the type they find attractive, but will be a whole person with his/her own attitudes thoughts and desires, I don't see where there is any room to judge."

but the "yellow fever" phenomenon specifically refers to people who don't realize this.
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Claudzilla  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I guess I didn't realize how specific an attitude Yellow Fever described, Gene. I got to reading Steven's responses and lost that focus.
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t h • 2 years ago
Asian women are highly prized but saddly American women arnt.
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Susan Fowler  Guest • 2 years ago
Sad for whoever is so emotionally unintelligent that they would attach value to someone based on their ethnicity and culture.
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Scott Shjefte  Susan Fowler • 2 years ago
It is sad you don't see the value of others ethnicity and culture.
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Scott Shjefte  Guest • 2 years ago
Sad for the woman and the men.
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Astacia Carter  t h • 2 years ago
Highly prized by men who are incapable of having a relationship built on mutual trust and love. The women who marries this type of man do it to feed their families back home. Ms. Lum tried to make light of a subject that is based on mutual extortion. She agrees to be a subservient housewife so he can be manly. He agrees to give her a set amount of money each month to send back to her family. She skipped over an aspect of this "fetish" that the general public is afraid to think about.
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Gene Demby NPR  Astacia Carter • 2 years ago
Did you see the documentary, Astacia? It's pretty clear that Sandy is not some pushover.
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Michael Kagan  t h • 2 years ago
Baloney. Imagine the tune played on the world's smallest violin. As someone in L.A. said above about seeing something "aaall the time" I see white American women as very into themselves and wanting their men to view them as the center of the universe and yet "strong" and sexy at the same time...aaal the time, chuckle. Too many Hollywood movies I fear.
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Bill O'Brien • 2 years ago
As a young Marine stationed in the Far East, I developed a strong attraction for Asian women. (As a child I was terrified by Asians because my parents would take me to a dark Chinese restaurant under the Brooklyn L and tell me if I didn't behave the waiters would lock me in the cellar.) To me, Asian women they have a gentle, innocent beauty with a touch of playful mystery.(It has nothing to do with subservience.)....As a 50s divorced white male, my quest to find an Asian woman for long term romance has thus far been fruitless. I am beginning to think that I should consider the "next best thing"....Asian guys....I'll get back to you...
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Van Jessica • 2 years ago
i'm just impressed by the number of applications steve has in his dock
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Samuel Thompson • 2 years ago
My father did this. After my mom divorced him he became affiliated with Asian people. He had some kereoke friends that he had. Then he started dating Asian women. Then he married one. Now he knows Mandarin Chinese and has considered moving to china once. This kind of obsession is a real thing. I watched it happen to my dad. I was around his friends kids so I wanted to date them. But I then realized that I really do not want to go down that path. My father made his choice. I just cannot justify marrying a person and indulging in their culture. I would just feel uncomfortable. What do I say? I just cannot bridge the gap. As I said my dad did it. I have seen how it happens and what it will affect the family.
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Bill O'Brien • 2 years ago
As a young Marine stationed in the Far East, I developed a strong attraction for Asian women. (As a child I was terrified by Asians because my parents would take me to a dark Chinese restaurant under the Brooklyn L and tell me if I didn't behave the waiters would lock me in the cellar.) To me, Asian women they have a gentle, innocent beauty with a touch of playful mystery.(It has nothing to do with subservience.)....As a 50s divorced white male, my quest to find an Asian woman for long term romance has thus far been fruitless. I am begining to think that I should consider the "next best thing"....Asian guys....I'll get back to you...
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H Cantrall • 2 years ago
Not all people who prefer partners from a particular cultural background are racist or fetishist. But some are. And there is probably a continuum that it all lies on - and that's the part that makes us uncomfortable - the ambiguity. To what degree is the attraction based on the interracial nature of the relationship? Is it even possible to have an interracial relationship where it's not a factor? At what point does it become creepy exactly?

My ex and I used to laugh about the romance novels that fetishized our relationship (white girl/Native American man). But because cultural identity is integral to who a person is - I don't think we can ever just say love is color blind. It is part of what I loved about him because it is part of who he is as an individual. It was always there - to deny it would be a lie, but to say I had "red fever" with all the disgusting idealization that comes with that term would not be true either.

I think this seems to have uncovered an uncomfortable truth - sometimes what appears to be a clear cut case of racist power and privilege is a lot more ambiguous. Which is probably why this is igniting so much vitriol and defensiveness.
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Jeremy Hagy • 2 years ago
Guilty as charged and not offended by the term yellow fever in the slightest. I grew up in South Florida and began to appreciate the beauty and charms of women from many races. I married the woman of my dreams whom I met in South Korea and is a Filipina. I think a lot of the disgust here seems to stem from the age gap. I don't think I should be vilified for liking women that are not a closer genetic match to me and more likely to produce offspring with defects. I am also not attracted to obesity which is the norm here. My wife and I have three healthy and smart children that benefitll from having parents that still deeply in love with each other and are still attracted to each other after a decade and a lustra together.
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Broad Thoughts • 2 years ago
Is "Yellow Fever Rehab" a 30 or 60 day treatment program?
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Gene Demby NPR  Broad Thoughts • 2 years ago
The real question is whether insurers will cover the treatment.
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alan m • 2 years ago
If you happened to catch the HBO show "Vice" segment that focused on the overabundance of males in Chinese society due to the "1 child only" laws, and the preference to have male children, you would see how harshly males are judged in China. Apparently so harshly even with the heavy male to female ratio, Chinese women are still looking outside the country for marriage.
It's demeaning for a man to value what perceives as desirable traits based on ethnicity and their associated cultural stereotypes. It's just as demeaning that the women (and their families) don't give a crap about anything except the size of their bank account.
I find it very "creepy" to be summed up by my appearance and what it MIGHT suggest about my wealth.
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mystery meat  alan m • 2 years ago
i think your analysis is a bit one sided. historically, men in china have had pretty much all the power and all the wealth. it's not at all surprising that chinese women might look to other nationalities or cultures to find a husband that holds them in equal esteem.
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Gene Demby NPR  alan m • 2 years ago
uh, has that happened to you often, Alan?
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Keri Engen • 2 years ago
I think most of us are guilty of choosing a mate by their physical appearance, whether it's because of hair or eye color, stature, weight, fitness level and yes, even race. Whoever denies this is lying to themselves.
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Gene Demby NPR  Keri Engen • 2 years ago
As has been said repeatedly in this thread, the way race acts in these scenarios is different tjam say, having some preference regarding height or whatever. Steven assumed a bunch of ugly, infantilizing stuff about the women he was seeking out because of their race (although he or the other fetishists didn't think of it as insulting).
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Michael Kagan  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
Maybe we should see the film first.
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Gene Demby NPR  Michael Kagan • 2 years ago
We did see it, Michael. It premiered at Sundance, it's streaming on PBS, and it's available on iTunes. Kat (the author of this article) and I live-tweeted it earlier this week.

But keep trolling.
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Michael Kagan  Gene Demby • 2 years ago
I'm not trolling (though I do regularly contribute to and promote NPR) but my comments were actually intended for others who had appeared to have not seen the film and were inadvertently put in as a reply to you rather than the person I was intending to respond to.

But you might agree that many of the people posting here are criticizing the person who is the subject of the film without having seen it. That isn't uncommon. I have heard enough here that I probably won't watch it though initially I thought my spouse who is Chinese-American and experienced a lot of so called "Asian fever" from older white men before we met might be interested. But we've both heard enough
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Michael Kagan  Keri Engen • 2 years ago
Certainly in part but that seldom sustains a relationship. Of course we are biological beings and therefore sexual beings and it isn't surprising that physical characteristics play a role.
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Joe Goff • 2 years ago
1) so he likes asian women..big deal, everyone has a type. and as far as "yellow fever" goes..i lived in thailand for 6 months about 11 years ago..i LOVED it. the people, the country, the culture. and i want a thai girl again. one that i can TRUST, to be with here in the US if we so choose. its not about "yellow fever" for some, like me. but oh no, dont try telling that to anyone here in the USA. you know, the people who have never actually BEEN out of the country, much less out of their home town. and for someone to belittle MY feelings toward someone, or some culture, is a joke. how would they know how i really feel? have they had my experiences(no), have they seen what i have(no). and 2) if he has "yellow fever" then why dont we just go all out here. there are guys with "black fever", "BBW fever", "skinny chick fever", ETC ETC.
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Gary Starks • 2 years ago
I think most males in America have a bit of "yellow fever." My past attractions have only been for asian women who were completely "Americanized" so I guess my fever was not complete. And most Asian women who marry outside there race usually only go for one type of man, of a certain race. I have seen a few exceptions on the West Coast.
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Kevin Russell • 2 years ago
I hate that some women are so dissatisfied with their country of origin that they would rather marry an old man in a different country for a few years just to get out of it. But what are you going to do, make mail-order brides illegal? That just makes it worse for the woman. The bigger problem here is the socioeconomic pressure these women feel that drives them to such extremes in the first place, if that is ever fixed, the other will go away by itself. In the mean time, I feel like it's a good thing the women have an option.
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Mick Holland • 2 years ago
Some of these chaps have it bad.

http://www.rangefinderforum.co...
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Wayne Larson • 2 years ago
I'm sure pornography has nothing to do with this.
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Steven Bolstad  Wayne Larson • 2 years ago
Did it have anything to do with you finding your wife?
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mm2973 • 2 years ago
Growing up in Quincy there were quite a few asian females who came pretty close to fetishizing males of white irish ancestry. So maybe the film maker has a touch of "green fever". We humans tend to see our situations as unique and undefinable, while others are easily thrown into categories...That said, my turn to judge. I think Steven had a fairly obvious case of racist love syndrome...
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Ian Leary • 2 years ago
We're programmed to be interested in "other". Can that interest operate in tandem with human tendencies to objectify other human beings? Absolutely. But objectification operates independently of race. If it didn't, a man could not objectify a woman of the same race for sex, and she could not objectify him for success or as a character in her internal monologue. [Just waiting for someone squawk that yes, men objectify women for sex but that women would never objectify men.] The interest in "other" as a mate has well-grounded roots in biology. Partners with distinctly different genetic inheritance can contribute distinctly different immunity inheritance to offspring. We are programmed to want our children to have the most robust possible immune system. Not being open to partnering with the "other" (as opposed to illicit sex leading to procreation) is a cultural construct.
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Diana Wheelen • 2 years ago
If I strategically change or omit 4 words in the
last paragraph I think the real issue is revealed.

“The way [some men] think about women — stripping
them of their individuality, layering on pre-conceived ideals, replacing people
with types — [is] challenged when [they meet] a real person with layers of her
own.”

...and vice versa for women...
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Melinda Critzer • 2 years ago
#my ex-boyfriend
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Gene Demby NPR  Melinda Critzer • 2 years ago
Oof. That's rough. At what point in your relationship did this become clear?
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Samuel Thompson • 2 years ago
My father did this. After my parents divorced my dad only dated Asian women. A few years later he married a Taiwanese woman. He learned Mandarin Chinese and only associates with Chinese people. At the time I was exposed to the daughters of his friends but after a while I didn't want anything to do with 'Yellow Fever'. I just do not see how someone would be so obsessed with a culture that they feel obligated to marry into it and devote their life to it. I just feel that I would rather marry for true love and not just for to follow an obsession with a culture. I would never want to follow in my fathers footsteps for the reason of that I simply do not want to intrude in the private culture of nationalities other than I. Frankly I would not know what to say to their family. How do you say that you married them because you always wanted to marry an Asian woman? My dad justified it. I just cannot. So I would be by myself before I follow in his footsteps.
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Petey Acorn  Guest • 2 years ago
I'm sorry, Mr. Kagan, but nearly every single one of your comments (of which there are many) are blatant attempts to derail the conversation.
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Gene Demby NPR  Petey Acorn • 2 years ago
Indeed. They'll be treated as trolling henceforth.
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Michael Kagan  Petey Acorn • 2 years ago
Actually I think you missed a few since I am married to a Chinese-American and made some quite relevant comments to the issues raised here. But don't bother to read them and I will reciprocate.
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superf 88 • 2 years ago
Interesting enough story about 3 people. not a story about race tho.
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bernard JAMES • 2 years ago
how odd that in 2013 this is a big deal. we have a long way to go to achieve the "melting pot"
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Petey Acorn  bernard JAMES • 2 years ago
It's not the interracial relationships that are a big deal, it's the racial baggage that some bring into these relationships that can be "a big deal."
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Shawn Miller • 2 years ago
It may be a fetish but I look at the reality of cultures and how one is viewed in each. One of the news agency put a story out there of the wife shortage in china and how the young chinese men have to offer up a steep dowery to win the girl. A successful westerner from the caucasian world may have much better things to offer than the native man their. For example a much better place to live and not just the sum of money for the dowery,

Personally I am 42 and looking at eastern europe for another caucasian and I am not being racist. I do find some Asians attractive and their cultural differences might be more open to marrying at a substantial age difference. The education standards are better outside the Us to find someone for me.

With a study out there from the us census data also suggests that people like to marry around the same age so they can do stuff together. I find fault with that considering things to do can be sitting in front of tvs and going to concert. The internet is blurring the lines for which age group is what any more. I listen to my metal from my teenage stuff but I do like a lot of the modern pop scene. It seems to have less milase in the songs than the old drug ladened metal scene,
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B S • 2 years ago
Btw, this yellow fever doesn't exist in Australia and I must say, I like it better as a girl who looks more like Kim K ( I am Persian) and couldn't compete, shockingly, in SF bay area with Asian girls. I never ever witnessed such a phenomenon. All my non-Asian friends also find this fever odd and abnormal, I never experienced it in Europe, and here in Sydney such a thing doesn't exist. It's do to with SF/Bay area men in particular and I am pretty sure on the reasons, figured it out finally.
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In Search of Gladstonian Republicans

The liberalism of Britain’s great 19th-century prime minister is a model for the next conservative revolution.

By John Micklethwait and Adrian WooldridgeMay 30, 2014 6:55 p.m. ET

Few political parties have been better at reinventing themselves than the Republicans. But at the moment, when it comes to ideas, they are in a funk. American conservatives certainly know what they are against—most notably ObamaCare—but cannot agree on what they are for. The recent primaries only re-emphasized the gulf between the party’s big business and tea party wings. Thanks to President Obama’s weakness, the party might claw back the Senate this year, but, without a positive message, without a big idea, disaster beckons, yet again, in the presidential race in 2016.

Well, gather around Mitch McConnell and John Boehner (and Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio and Scott Walker ), and listen to what will strike you as a fairy tale. Imagine that the world’s superpower reduces the size of government by a quarter over the next 30 years, even as its population grows by 50%. Imagine further that the superpower performs this miracle while dramatically increasing both the quality of public services and the nation’s diplomatic clout. And imagine that the Republican Party leads this great revolution while uniting its manifold factions behind one of its favorite words: liberty.
Enlarge Image

A caricature by Ape (Carlo Pellegrini) of British politician William E. Gladstone from English periodical VANITY FAIR. (Photo by Time Life Pictures/Mansell/Time Life Pictures/Getty Images)

Before politicians were telegenic.

Impossible? That is exactly what Britain, then the world’s superpower and pioneer of the new economy, did in the 19th century. Gross revenue from taxation fell from just under £80 million in 1816 to well under £60 million in 1846, even as the population surged and the government helped build schools, hospitals, sewers and the world’s first police force. The Victorians paid for these useful new services by getting rid of what they called “Old Corruption” (and we would call cronyism) and by exploiting the new technology of the day, like the railway. For these liberal reformers were the allies of the new commercial classes who were creating the industries that were transforming the world.

And they kept on cutting government for decades. William Gladstone, four times prime minister in the second half of the 19th century, believed in cutting taxes so that money could “fructify in the pockets of the people.” Confronted with socialist protesters who demanded “no taxation without representation,” the giant of Victorian liberalism replied that he believed in “no taxation” (something even Grover Norquist cannot match). He paid for his passion for social reform by a ruthless campaign against waste. The head of the Liberal Party prided himself on “saving candle ends and cheese-parings in the cause of the country,” opening up every branch of government to competition.

Messrs. Bush, Rubio and Walker may well have noticed an awkward word: “liberal.” But this was real liberalism—the classical small-government creed of Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill (and for that matter Milton Friedman and Margaret Thatcher ). The Victorians believed in a “night-watchman state”—one that left citizens as free as possible to pursue their own ends, provided that they did no harm to anyone else. Its watch words were liberty and efficiency.

Of course there are one or two differences between today’s Washington and Victorian London. Today’s Washington has accumulated trillions of dollars’ worth of entitlements for pensions. Victorian London did not have to worry about nuclear terrorism. But Gladstonian liberalism provides a remarkable template for the next conservative revolution.

First, rip out cronyism. Between 1815 and 1870 British Liberals replaced a government based on patronage, sweeping aside the special privileges for the East India Company, West Indian sugar makers and British landowners. Today the American right’s dirty secret is its love of big government, especially tax breaks for business (including sugar). The U.S. tax code has $1.6 trillion of exemptions, most of which go to the well-off.

Gladstone would get rid of them all—gradually, perhaps, with the concessions for health-insurance and mortgage interest—and in return chop income- and corporate-tax rates. Having helped dismantle Britain’s protectionist Corn Laws in the 1840s, he would be astonished that America still doles out $30 billion a year in agriculture subsidies and employs 100,000 people in the Agriculture Department.

Second, concentrate the state on what it needs to do. Why does the federal government own 900,000 buildings and 260 million acres of land? Why does it continue to run utilities? Why are so many American airports still in public hands? Gladstone would concentrate money on the poor, targeting the welfare state for the rich. More money goes to the top 5% in mortgage-interest deduction than to the bottom 50% in social housing. He would set about reforming entitlements to make sure that they are fundable, for example raising the retirement age to 70 in line with life expectancy (as other countries like Sweden have done).

Third, simplify government, particularly the numbers. In the early 19th century, British government accounts were incomprehensible, deliberately so. The aristocrats who ran the country wanted to conceal the fact that most government spending went to support their relations in the form of sinecures, church livings, pensions and ceremonial jobs. Gladstone insisted on standing before Parliament and explaining the budget in detail: If he couldn’t explain it to a gathering of his peers, then he knew that it was worthless. America’s current budget is so full of perks for vested interests that only lobbyists and their lawyers can understand it. The U.S. would hugely benefit from a bit of Gladstonian theater, with a Republican candidate promising to explain every dollar of spending in the State of the Union.

Fourth, take the state seriously. This is the tea party’s great shortcoming. The Victorians believed in “reform” as well as “retrenchment.” It was precisely because they wanted the state to be as small as possible that they put so much effort into making it work as well as possible. They introduced competitive exams for civil servants, rewarding the good ones with money and honors while sacking the bad ones. Gladstone would have approved of Singapore, where the state is tiny but the top civil servants get paid $2 million a year. The best way for the U.S. to avoid disasters like the current one in the Department of Veterans Affairs is to do a better job of hiring—and firing.

Fifth, put yourself on the side of business creation. Visit Silicon Valley, and you’ll find that Republicans are regarded as being out of touch, not least because of their approach to immigration. Gladstone was the ally of the new economic forces that were reshaping Britain, but he encouraged them by creating a level playing field. He was one of the architects of the great legal reforms that allowed anybody to form a limited-liability company. American conservatives should fight to make it easier to take companies public too, partly because that spreads popular capitalism.

Finally, make the state humble and dowdy. Gladstone, who even told his government to use cheaper writing paper, would have been horrified by the motorcades that sweep through Washington. He preferred to walk. A more contemporary role model for the Republicans is the current pope: Despite being just as much of a target for the assassin’s bullet as any American politician, Pope Francis has shed the trappings of state in favor of a simple old Ford. It is much easier to cut unnecessary spending if you don’t spend your life in a cocoon of privilege.

Do any Republicans come close to this? In Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker has tried to break the power of public unions in order to allow money to fructify in the pockets of the people. Jeb Bush has pioneered school and immigration reform and as the governor of Florida made life easier for the state’s entrepreneurs. Tea party Republicans such as Sens. Marco Rubio and Rand Paul have fulminated against crony capitalism. But so far nobody has been able to present a coherent vision of what the American state should do in a world that is being transformed by the Internet and shaken up by the growing strength of Asian giants. Ironically, the best way to formulate an American conservative vision might be to look back to a 19th-century Brit who marched under the banner of liberalism.

Messrs. Micklethwait and Wooldridge, respectively the editor in chief and management editor of the Economist, are the authors of “The Fourth Revolution: The Global Race to Reinvent the State.” just out from Penguin Press.

When Did Americans Lose Their British Accents?

January 17, 2012 - 6:05pm

 

IMAGE CREDIT: 

SHUTTERSTOCK

Matt Soniak

Readers Nick and Riela have both written to ask how and when English colonists in America lost their British accents and how American accents came about.

There are many, many evolving regional British and American accents, so the terms “British accent” and “American accent” are gross oversimplifications. What a lot of Americans think of as the typical "British accent” is what's called standardized Received Pronunciation (RP), also known as Public School English or BBC English. What most people think of as an "American accent," or most Americans think of as "no accent," is the General American (GenAm) accent, sometimes called a "newscaster accent" or "Network English." Because this is a blog post and not a book, we'll focus on these two general sounds for now and leave the regional accents for another time.

English colonists established their first permanent settlement in the New World at Jamestown, Virginia, in 1607, sounding very much like their countrymen back home. By the time we had recordings of both Americans and Brits some three centuries later (the first audio recording of a human voice was made in 1860), the sounds of English as spoken in the Old World and New World were very different. We're looking at a silent gap of some 300 years, so we can't say exactly when Americans first started to sound noticeably different from the British.

As for the "why," though, one big factor in the divergence of the accents is rhotacism. The General American accent is rhotic and speakers pronounce the r in words such as hard. The BBC-type British accent is non-rhotic, and speakers don't pronounce the r, leaving hardsounding more like hahd. Before and during the American Revolution, the English, both in England and in the colonies, mostly spoke with a rhotic accent. We don't know much more about said accent, though. Various claims about the accents of the Appalachian Mountains, the Outer Banks, the Tidewater region and Virginia's Tangier Island sounding like an uncorrupted Elizabethan-era English accent have been busted as myths by linguists. 

TALK THIS WAY

Around the turn of the 18th 19th century, not long after the revolution, non-rhotic speech took off in southern England, especially among the upper and upper-middle classes. It was a signifier of class and status. This posh accent was standardized as Received Pronunciation and taught widely by pronunciation tutors to people who wanted to learn to speak fashionably. Because the Received Pronunciation accent was regionally "neutral" and easy to understand, it spread across England and the empire through the armed forces, the civil service and, later, the BBC.

Across the pond, many former colonists also adopted and imitated Received Pronunciation to show off their status. This happened especially in the port cities that still had close trading ties with England — Boston, Richmond, Charleston, and Savannah. From the Southeastern coast, the RP sound spread through much of the South along with plantation culture and wealth.

After industrialization and the Civil War and well into the 20th century, political and economic power largely passed from the port cities and cotton regions to the manufacturing hubs of the Mid Atlantic and Midwest — New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, etc. The British elite had much less cultural and linguistic influence in these places, which were mostly populated by the Scots-Irish and other settlers from Northern Britain, and rhotic English was still spoken there. As industrialists in these cities became the self-made economic and political elites of the Industrial Era, Received Pronunciation lost its status and fizzled out in the U.S. The prevalent accent in the Rust Belt, though, got dubbed General American and spread across the states just as RP had in Britain. 

Of course, with the speed that language changes, a General American accent is now hard to find in much of this region, with New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Chicago developing their own unique accents, and GenAm now considered generally confined to a small section of the Midwest.

As mentioned above, there are regional exceptions to both these general American and British sounds. Some of the accents of southeastern England, plus the accents of Scotland and Ireland, are rhotic. Some areas of the American Southeast, plus Boston, are non-rhotic.

Apple isn’t that innovative – Glenn’s interview with tech investor and billionaire Peter Thiel

Tuesday, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:15 PM EDT

Peter Thiel is the founder of PayPal and the first angel investor in something called ‘The Facebook’ – needless to say he’s done pretty well in the financial world. Thiel is staunchly libertarian and preaches against conformity, believing firmly that no two great ideas are alike. On radio this morning, the author of the new book ‘Zero to One’ spoke with Glenn about trouble on Apple’s horizon and why he doesn’t have a problem with monopolies.

“It had an enormous run of innovation under Jobs for decades and decades. But it’s hard to maintain innovation when you get that big when you’re making $150 billion a year from selling i Phones. It’s hard to come up with any new vertical to compete with it. It has the same problem any of these large companies have. Companies get bureaucratic. They get stagnant,” Thiel said.

“Tim Cook is doing as good a job as he can filling impossibly large shoes, but often, the innovation is driven by the founders. The founders are important. They set the tone of these companies, and once they leave, it’s often hard for that to persevere. It’s sort of an analogy I draw, and maybe it’s overdone, with the founders of companies and the founders of our country. When you found something, you have tremendous freedom. You can sort of set up all the parameters, and then often the people who come afterwards have much less ability to change things or you’re sort of caught up in these structures,” he added.

“There’s always a degree to which if you’re too doctrinaire, you’ve lost something. Of course, if you’ve forgotten about it, you’ve lost something too. So you always have to be somewhere in between,” he said.

Thiel also said that he has no problem with monopolies, as companies should have unique and innovative ideas.

“You have to always distinguish — two different versions of this. One as advice to someone who is an entrepreneur or a founder, someone who is starting something, and there’s always the question about society. That, if you’re starting a business, you want to have a monopoly. You want to be doing something where it’s one of a kind. You don’t want to have the fourth online pet food company. You don’t want to have the tenth thin-film solar panel company. You don’t want to be opening the 1,000th restaurant here in Dallas. You want to be doing something that if you were not doing it, nobody would,” Thiel said.

” I think it’s bad if these monopolies are static like in the Parker Brothers board game where they become toll collectors like a troll on a bridge. And I think they become static in fact when they are regulated. When the government gets involved, it often ends up backing the monopolies in one way or another. So the Post Office is a bad monopoly. Comcast has problems.”

“But I think in technology, the monopolies are not permanent. They last for a few decades. You have a great run. That’s the reward you get for coming up with something new.”

A Magyar Nemzet legújabb címlapja?

2015, Feb. 7

Fotó: Facebook/Kétfarkú Kutya Párt

Obama and Odinga: The True Story

Senator Barack Obama in Kenya By Guest Column  Paula Abeles   August 8, 2008

The mainstream media has justified ignoring this story based on a “conspiracy theory” chain email (politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/465) making the rounds from some African missionaries. Politifact.com examined the email—which claims Obama gave $1MM to Odinga’s campaign—and declared it “a pants on fire”. 

However, the underlying (more important issues) are verifiably true. In August and September 2006, Senator Barack Obama traveled to South Africa, Chad, Djibouti, Ethiopia, Chad and Kenya as a congressional delegation of one (Codel Obama) (“Codel Obama” The Hill 9/7/2006)  While in Kenya, Obama consistently appeared at the side of fellow Luo Raila Odinga (“your agent for change’), who was running for President. (“Senator Rebukes Kenya’s Corruption” Chicago Sun Times 8/29/2006) Because of his African heritage, Obama was treated as a virtual “Head of State” in Kenya While campaigning with Odinga, Obama was openly critical of governmental corruption under President Mibaki –usually a fair, if undiplomatic, criticism from an objective observer.

However, Kibaki’s government has been better than most—-and Odinga has his own corruption issues. (“Loud and Populist, But No Political Outsider” The Guardian 12/29/2007)  

Obama’s partisan support for Odinga was considered so transparent, that the Kenyan Government spokesman, Alfred Matua, complained of political posturing to aid Odinga’s election chances: “It is very clear that the senator has been used as a puppet to perpetuate opposition politics,”(“Walking The World Stage” Newsweek 9/11/06) And, “...we earlier thought he was mature in his assessment of Kenyan and African politics,” Mutua told AFP.“We forgive him because it is his first time in the Senate and he is yet to mature into understanding issues of foreign policy,” he said.”(“Obama’s Kenya Honeymoon Ends Abruptly After Graft Rebuke” 8/29/06)

Subsequently, Ambassador Ogingo Ogego made a public complaint to the US.(“Kenyan Envoy Kicks Off Diplomatic Row” My Africa 9/27/2006)  

Raila Odinga subsequently lost the controversial (probably rigged) presidential election. In what appeared to many—including Human Rights Watch—as a coordinated strategy from the top, (“Violence We Fled was Planned, Say Kenyan Refugees” Reuters 1/26/2008 and “Kenya: Violence Planned Before Poll, Says Report” The Nation 3/18/2008) his Luo supporters (a core of whom call themselves The Taliban”(“Ethnic Gangs Rile Kenyan Slums” Newsweek 1/10/08)) engaged in what US Envoy Jendayi Frazer called “clear ethnic cleansing” (“US Envoy Calls Violence in Kenya ‘Ethnic Cleansing’” USA Today 1/30/2008) of the Kikuyu opposition.
                           
Odinga’s supporters went on a rampage—burning Kikuyu homes and businesses, (“Ethnic Cleansing in Luoland” The Economist 2/7/2008) raping Kikuyu women, and murdering everyone in their path—including at least 50 Christian Kikuyu woman & children who had sought refuge in a church. They burned them alive. (“Mob Burns Kenyans Seeking Refuge In Church” CNN 1/10/2008)  

“We have evidence that ODM [Odinga’s party] politicians and local leaders actively fomented some post-election violence,” Georgette Gagnon, acting Africa director for the New York based Human Rights Watch (HRW), said on Thursday.” (Violence We Fled was Planned, Say Kenyan Refugees” Ibid) 

So: who is Raila Odinga that Senator Obama would expend his political capital and risk the goodwill of half the population of Kenya?

Their relationship is unclear. The BBC initially reported that Obama and Odinga were first cousins.(“Odinga Says Obama is His Cousin” 1/8/2008)

The Obama campaign has since denied a familial relationship. Raila Odinga’s father, Oginga Odinga, was leader of the “Kenya People’s Union” and perceived as a “committed socialist” (“Oginga Odinga: Kenya’s Most Persecuted Politician” Kenya: Key Issues 8/21.2002). Odinga Sr. was also the political ally of fellow Luo; Barack Obama Sr. (The Risks of Knowledge (Ohio University Press, 2004) p. 182)  

What we do know about Odinga is not good. A former Minister of Energy, Odinga is reported to have been set up in the oil business by the al Bakri Group and Muammar Quaddafi (“How Rich is Raila-The ODM Kenya Presidential Aspirant?” African Press 4/26/2007)  Abdel Qader Bakri (or- Abdulkader al Bakri) was listed on the infamous “Golden Chain”—an internal Al-Queda list of wealthy Saudi financial sponsors seized by Bosnian police in a Islamic “charity” raid in 2001. (“Terrorist Financing Staff Monograph 9/11 Commission and “The Golden Chain”) According to his website, Odinga was educated in Communist East Germany, (Herder Institute, Leipzig & Otto von Guericke Tech. Institute, Magdeburg) (http://www.raila07.com) Odinga’s eldest son is named “Fidel” (http://www.raila07.com) 

Perhaps most troubling is Odinga’s links to Islamic extremists in Kenya.  According to Voice of America and the Evangelical Alliance of Kenya, on 8/29/07, Odinga signed a secret agreement (exposed 11/27) with Sheikh Abdullah Abdi of the National Muslim

Leaders Forum (NAMLEF) in which he agreed to institute Islamic law in exchange for Abdi’s support (eakenya.org)—thereby potentially disenfranchising and curtailing the liberties of millions of Christian Kenyan women. Further, he promised that Muslims suspected of terrorism would be safe from extradition—thereby establishing a ‘safe haven’ for terrorists in Kenya. 

After the public outcry, Odinga denied signing a secret agreement.  Angry at Odinga’s apparent repudiation, a member of NAMLEF subsequently released the agreement to the press.  Odinga then claimed the document was a forgery, but acknowledged a secret agreement had been signed in exchange for Muslim support.

Finally, under constant pressure, Odinga released what he claimed was the actual document (“Real” MOU) a considerably watered down version of the original; but still anathema to many Christian groups. “In response to the revelations, The Evangelical Alliance of Kenya released a statement in which church leaders said Raila, in both MOUs, ‘comes across as a presumptive Muslim president bent on forcing Islamic law, religion and culture down the throats of the Kenyan people in total disregard of the Constitutionally guaranteed rights of freedom of worship and equal protection of the law’” (“Concerns Raised Over Alleged Vow To Enforce Islamic Law in Kenya” Christian Post 12/18/2007) 

To many westerners, the idea of imposing Sharia in a predominantly Christian country may have seemed fanciful. However, Kenya has had Sharia courts for family law (not criminal law)—called Khadi courts—since 1963.  

For the US and “the war on terror”—the most worrisome section—contained in both agreements—concerns extradition (or renditions) of suspected terrorists to the US and
elsewhere. The Kibaki government had been a leading supporter of the US’s efforts to dismantle Al-Queda cells in Kenya (National Commission of Terrorist Attacks on the United States- 9/11 Report) and elsewhere. Raila Odinga made opposition to the government’s crackdown of suspected Al Queda supporters a cornerstone of his campaign “In Kimanthi’s view, ‘only some of the leaders’...were Al Queda sympathizers. The renditions- along with frequent police sweeps on the Swahili coast-had become an emotional issue in the presidential race. Islamic outrage had placed the incumbent, Kibaki, on the defensive and provided Raila Odinga with a tool to rally the support of Kenya’s Muslims.” (“The African Front” New York Times Magazine 12/23/2007)  And, “Our government will not be held at ransom to extradite Muslims to foreign lands”, Odinga told supporters in the coastal city of Mombassa. ‘This government is behaving as if it is still a colony.’” (“Outcome of Kenyan Election Could Impact Anti-Terror Cooperation” CNSNews.com 10/17/2007) 

So, how much of a national security concern is this? Well, actually: huge “...proximity to the volatile states…including Somalia and Sudan have made Kenya especially vulnerable, in the views of counterterrorism experts, to the call for jihad. Since the early 1990s, the mosques of Mombasa and other towns have resonated with militant Islamic rhetoric. Radical imams have preached violence against Westerners, attacked the Kenyan government as the lackey of the United States and Israel and called for the implementation of Shariah. Members of the Qaeda cells that blew up the U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania…were recruited in mosques near the Indian Ocean beaches [in Kenya]“ (“The African Front” , ibid) 

At no point has Senator Obama tried to distance himself from Odinga. Odinga visited Obama on a fundraising tour of the US in 2007 and it is believed that political strategist Dick Morris assisted in Odinga’s presidential campaign- gratis- at Obama’s request (Morris only acknowledged the suggestion came through “mutual friends”). (“Bridges Burned in US, Political Kingmaker Hits Africa”  ABC News 11/20/2007) Odinga has claimed that he and Obama speak regularly and whether this is true or not—the similarities between their campaigns are startling. (“Kenya Tests New Style of Politicking” The Washington Post, 12/22/2007) 

In fairness to Senator Obama, after Kenya erupted into violence ( and at the request of Condoleezza Rice), Obama did record a message “. ...calling for calm…” and had “..near daily conversations with the US Ambassador…and Raila Odinga” (“The Demons That Still Haunt Africa” TIME magazine 1/10/2008). Perhaps not surprisingly, President Kibaki apparently declined to take his call. Kibaki’s not the only one no longer filled with enthusiasm for Senator Obama’s brand of diplomacy. As Nicholas Kristof reported (with some surprise) in February: “You might think that all Kenyans would be vigorously supporting Mr. Obama. But Kenya has been fractured along ethnic lines in the last two months, so now Mr. Obama draws frenzied support from the Luos ethnic group of his ancestors, while many members of the rival Kikuyu group fervently support Hillary Rodham Clinton. (“Obama’s Kenya Roots” New York Times 2/24/2008) 

Curiously, it has been the Kenyan press (almost alone) who have realized the potential implications: “... this is what may be the most memorable effect of the ODM’s [Odinga’s party] post-election campaign for State House. The longer their protests last, and the less disciplined they are - or the more atrocities like Eldoret [church massacre] are conducted in the party’s name- the more likely Kenya is to be stuck on the front pages of the world’s media and the more embarrassment it will bring to the Senator.” (“The Kiss of Death, How Kenya Could Spoil It For Obama”  KenyaImagine 1/13/2008)  

Clearly, Obama campaigned for someone who is corrupt, ruthless and has financial ties to terrorists. More importantly, Obama campaigned for a candidate who had the stated objective of dismantling US & Kenyan government efforts to root out Al Queda and other terrorist organizations. Organizations that had already caused the deaths of hundreds of Americans and Africans in embassy bombings. Senator Obama’s actions—intentional or not—were in direct conflict with the efforts and interests of US national security. I think this raises serious questions about the judgment, maturity and readiness of Senator Obama. 

Respectfully submitted,
Paula Abeles
spabeles@comcast.net